RDM Tanking Post 6/21 - they all give 1CE/300VE now

[Tsuko_Asura]

Small safety benefits have never been a justification for slower kills. RDM is dead. Move on.

[Mercilessturtle]

Repeating "rdm is dead move on" isn't changing anything. RDM still works just fine for the few fights it was ever worth using on. If you want to use a blu tank to save 4 minutes on ouryu feel free. There's no speed difference on JoL, and for ruthven blu vs rdm depends on if you are using rng or smn. So again, rdm went from being useful for 2 fights all the time and 2 fights depending on the setup, to being useful for 2 fights all the time and 1 fight depending on the setup. Wow, huge change.

[homerun]

Repeating "rdm is dead move on" isn't changing anything. RDM still works just fine for the few fights it was ever worth using on. If you want to use a blu tank to save 4 minutes on ouryu feel free. There's no speed difference on JoL, and for ruthven blu vs rdm depends on if you are using rng or smn. So again, rdm went from being useful for 2 fights all the time and 2 fights depending on the setup, to being useful for 2 fights all the time and 1 fight depending on the setup. Wow, huge change.

Ouryu and JoL are a joke to tank, why would you shoehorn in rdm for survivability when literally any job with a earth staff and a basic pdt/mdt set can survive comfortably with 0 issues? Rdm was pretty good defensively but it's main selling point was the stranglehold on hate it could get without engaging. On anything remotely difficult you'll probably go through shadows quickly or take damage, which really shits on the ichi hate spell cycle you've got going.

Just look at the pros and cons for rdm and you'll see that it's really not worth the effort for what you get out of it.

[Mercilessturtle]

There is no shoehorning, the whole point is that it still works fine and is still easy, it just takes slightly longer to build CE. If you want a fast CE building tank feel free to use a blu.

[Jex]

Tanked Khim pld vs. rdm/nin (Who b4 spells had no problem showing up pld/nin's) Try spamming nin spells and cure cheat, I still had hate 90% the fight. I will say Rdm tanks are fucking awesome when dread storms go off and they take hardly any dmg.

Going to have to say though i agree with Tusko, Rdm/nin would be fine for holding HNMs till LS members get there but straight tanking i don't see it making a come back.

[Taruking]

Remember CE spell nerf affects all 3 endgame jobs.

In extreme case, it's possible to squeeze 4 ichi spells in 15 sec which give you 1240 VE/400 CE, that's 4960 VE/ 1600 CE in 1 mins. In about 2+ mins, capped VE + 3200 CE, all done without spending any MP.

Let's take a look at cure 3 spam, Cure III gives 1090 VE/180 CE, takes roughly 1.5 sec to cast and negligible recast. 10xCure III in a row gives you capped VE and 1800 CE, only cost 460 MP and can be done in less than a minute. Whenever RDM need more MP they can simply resort to Ichi spells while waiting for MP to recover.

RDM is capable of generating spike hate just fine. PLD, NIN and RDM all face the same challenge in unengaged fight since RDM SJ no longer works for PLD and DRK SJ does not provide any big CE spell apart from Aspir (which is limited by recast). RDM can potentially do better due to the fact that they can spam ichi spells and take less damage (i.e. less CE loss).

[BerenTebogo]

Remember CE spell nerf affects all 3 endgame jobs.

In extreme case, it's possible to squeeze 4 ichi spells in 15 sec which give you 1240 VE/400 CE, that's 4960 VE/ 1600 CE in 1 mins. In about 2+ mins, capped VE + 3200 CE, all done without spending any MP.

Let's take a look at cure 3 spam, Cure III gives 1090 VE/180 CE, takes roughly 1.5 sec to cast and negligible recast. 10xCure III in a row gives you capped VE and 1800 CE, only cost 460 MP and can be done in less than a minute. Whenever RDM need more MP they can simply resort to Ichi spells while waiting for MP to recover.

RDM is capable of generating spike hate just fine. PLD, NIN and RDM all face the same challenge in unengaged fight since RDM SJ no longer works for PLD and DRK SJ does not provide any big CE spell apart from Aspir (which is limited by recast). RDM can potentially do better due to the fact that they can spam ichi spells and take less damage (i.e. less CE loss).

>>PLD/NIN, NIN/DRK, DRK/NIN don't get ichi spells
>>Taking 0 damage is less damage taken than taking 0 damage
>>Tanking requires skill
>>Your points are insightful and correct

There's so much implied here I may just start breaking out in dy/dx's

[homerun]

Remember CE spell nerf affects all 3 endgame jobs.

In extreme case, it's possible to squeeze 4 ichi spells in 15 sec which give you 1240 VE/400 CE, that's 4960 VE/ 1600 CE in 1 mins. In about 2+ mins, capped VE + 3200 CE, all done without spending any MP.

Let's take a look at cure 3 spam, Cure III gives 1090 VE/180 CE, takes roughly 1.5 sec to cast and negligible recast. 10xCure III in a row gives you capped VE and 1800 CE, only cost 460 MP and can be done in less than a minute. Whenever RDM need more MP they can simply resort to Ichi spells while waiting for MP to recover.

RDM is capable of generating spike hate just fine. PLD, NIN and RDM all face the same challenge in unengaged fight since RDM SJ no longer works for PLD and DRK SJ does not provide any big CE spell apart from Aspir (which is limited by recast). RDM can potentially do better due to the fact that they can spam ichi spells and take less damage (i.e. less CE loss).

The problem with this math is you aren't accounting for breaks in hate spell casting (to cast shadows, redo buffs, ect) and the fact that you'll be losing CE at a steady rate by just losing shadows. Also any mob that can actually hit you will heavily negate whatever defensive bonus rdm is giving you.

Drk/nin has a fair amount of CE spells to rotate and can wear all the same defensive gear that pld can besides shield. It should be the goto tank for non engaged tanking. Don't know enough about blu tanking to comment on that but from the looks of it it looks really viable.

Keep in mind that if ichi spell cycle tanking did catch on (which i doubt) why wouldn't SE nerf ichi spell ce? They showed that they are actively watching for people trying to bypass the system, like that whm sleep nerf before they even took off from the ground. It sucks, but if you really love tanking it might be time to level drk blu or pld :\

[Raen Ryong]

Are you suggesting RDM was only good at tanking a small set of mobs? <_<

[Mercilessturtle]

Just to start out, I still do unengaged tanking on drk so don't think this is me saying "drk can't tank". It works fine still just like rdm does. But drk/nin builds CE just as slowly as rdm does, has far less survivability, and needs an rdm to support them anyways. If you can't wait 5 minutes for the rdm to cap their CE then you can't wait 5 minutes for a drk to do it either. If you are going to hop on the "rdm tanking is dead" bandwagon, you should have a basic understanding of the alternatives. And the only alternative with any advantage is blu because they can cap CE very quickly by starting with diffusion+exuvation then spamming blank gaze. Drk tanking still works fine for everything it was ever useful for, but it didn't make sense to use it for something like ouryu before, and it doesn't make sense now.

Raen: I am suggesting rdm was only worth using on a small set of mobs. Virtually everything is best tanked by a drk, mnk or sam. I'm sure there's something else other than the 4 mobs I listed, but I can't think of it. Rdm was a niche tank for a few fights, just like pld is (although pld's list is probably just orcus and the t4 dragon?).

[Raen Ryong]

Oh okay, if you want to go the full optimisation route I can understand your point. I thought you were saying that RDM was a poor tank when it's still very good, just not BG perfect.

[Mad Friar Avelyn]

Are people forgetting that VE degrades at about 60 VE/second? Or is it just me laughing at the "capped" VE in two minutes with the ninjutsu spells?

[Aben]

*This is a reference for those that don't see or understand blu tanking. I understand many aren't huge supporters but helping everyone see the new picture can help with comparisons.

Standard Spell list: 50 points w/ assimilation

> Combo makes auto-refresh
4 Actinic Burst (180 CE 1020 VE)
5 Plasma Charge (Shock Spikes for hundred fists)

4 Jettatura (180 CE 1020 VE) ~ Terror
5 Temporal Shift (180 CE 1020 VE) ~ AoE Stun
4 Exuviation (640 CE 640 VE) ~ 90 hp/Erase
2 Blank Gaze (320 CE 320 VE) ~ Dispel

> Combo makes Fast Cast
5 Bad Breath
4 Sub-Zero Smash

1 Cocoon ~ 50% def bonus
3 Magic Fruit ~ Cure IVish

> Combo makes Conserve MP
2 Zephyr Mantle (320 VE 320 CE) ~ 4 shadow blink
2 Chaotic Eye ~ Silence

This leaves 9 points for dependent usage. We can also get Magic Def Bonus and Counter traits if self Refresh/Haste are not required. Diamondhide, Metallic Body (Weaker Stoneskins), and Saline Coat (50mdb decaying) are somewhat common as well.

Frenetic Rip can pull ok numbers due to its innate 'att' bonus and Head butt can sometimes work as well with high m.acc setups.

*Poison breath is a very mp efficient hate gainer as well. Low mp cost, quick cast, hp dependent damage.

*Obviously CE gain is far far easier than others now. Diffusion > Exuviation with 25 enm+ can grant 4800 CE and 4800 VE right off the bat.

*You can cycle ichi > ni > ichi > zephyr mantle as its blink is quite reliable on fast mobs.

*-102% interruption set still applicable to get any spells off.

*Actinic Burst, Temporal Shift, and Jettatura have longish recasts, but once you're capped cycling them does the job easily.

*Sanguine Blade offers us a new, consistent damage ws as long as the HNM does not have insanely high mdb.

*Can now be more self-sufficient if needed through battery charge/animating wail.

Obviously there is not as much fast cast/HQ stoneskin like a rdm, no shields/ohcrapbutton like plds, not as much eva as nin, or as much dmg as a sam tank. However, there's a healthy mix of tools between them all.

The biggest weakness I have experienced is the lack of sentinel/invincible/chainspell if something crazy happens. For example, two sets of adds pop on Odin and you have at least Odin/3 adds wailing on you. Granted, the -interruption set has helped alot, but its still not the same.

Take that for what you will, but now every is more on the same page for comparison sake.

[homerun]

Just to start out, I still do unengaged tanking on drk so don't think this is me saying "drk can't tank". It works fine still just like rdm does. But drk/nin builds CE just as slowly as rdm does, has far less survivability, and needs an rdm to support them anyways. If you can't wait 5 minutes for the rdm to cap their CE then you can't wait 5 minutes for a drk to do it either. If you are going to hop on the "rdm tanking is dead" bandwagon, you should have a basic understanding of the alternatives. And the only alternative with any advantage is blu because they can cap CE very quickly by starting with diffusion+exuvation then spamming blank gaze. Drk tanking still works fine for everything it was ever useful for, but it didn't make sense to use it for something like ouryu before, and it doesn't make sense now.

I agree drk isn't as good as old rdm was for ce building but it's still way ahead of the current rdm.

Also for the record i've done ouryu drk/nin prepatch (to mess around) it wasn't that bad :\

[Nyaanyaa_Midgardsormr]

I agree drk isn't as good as old rdm was for ce building but it's still way ahead of the current rdm.

Have you actually read anything he said...?

[homerun]

Have you actually read anything he said...?

"If you can't wait 5 minutes for the rdm to cap their CE then you can't wait 5 minutes for a drk to do it either"

this what i was replying to. The time you'd have to wait for a drk to establish hate isn't gonna be nearly as bad as a rdm.

[Mercilessturtle]

Except that it is just as much time, like I said. A drk has to do stun/aspir/absorb-tp rotation to build CE. It takes 5 minutes to cap out that way. It takes an rdm 5 minutes to get enough mp back from refresh + ballad to cap out using cure cheats after blowing through their mp and converting. Wait 5 minutes for a tank with phalanx, stoneskin, MDB, fastcast, self cures or wait 5 minutes for a tank with stun. The only completely unengaged tanking I can think of where drk is better than alternatives are omega and ultima.

[evilpaul]

Omega in Limbus is about as hard as Omega on the airship. Just sayin.'

[Mercilessturtle]

The question of course is, why are you "just sayin"? This isn't a "how hard do random tards think mob X is" thread.

[Nyaanyaa_Midgardsormr]

Omega in Limbus is about as hard as Omega on the airship. Just sayin.'

Well that's... gamebreaking news. Now please go over to the playground and say hi to them other kids, 'kay? Don't worry, they won't bite. I'm sure they'll let you play too.

Edit: Beaten. Dammit, shouldn't go afk before hitting 'Submit'. >.>