Walk of Echoes

[Mathayus]

A lot of JP have leeched my runs without hesitation then turn around and bitch at me in some unknown moon speak when i go leech theirs. What silliness.

If you don't want leechers, take 36 people.

[Thorny]

gl making a decent amount of gil or coins with 36..

even if you assume 1 pouch worth 10 in each of the 5 boxes and 2 in the original, that's 70 coins / 36 = <2 each.. and that's an absurdly generous estimate

5m / 36 = 138k each for gil :/

[Zumi]

Been leeching JP PUG runs and a lot of the times they just invite me. Seem to get 4th place a lot with pld/nin but while other times I don't even place usually if there is a lot of blus. Do you think pld/whm or rdm/nin be easier to place with?

[Sephoroth]

If you don't want leechers, take 36 people.

That's pretty much it.

[Kincard]

bitch at me in some unknown moon speak

I'm pretty impressed by your ability to read a language you don't speak.

Been leeching JP PUG runs and a lot of the times they just invite me.

Don't know about other servers, but Leviathan has PUGs hammering conflux 2 for several hours every day since they made WoE even easier, and I've not once seen any JPONRI douchebaggery. It's pretty amazing, actually.

[Babu]

People are using the word leech for anyone who enters not in your main alliance? I don't see how they're leeching if they contribute to damage, healing or tanking unless they just stand off in a corner out of AoE range and lot everything.

You can't call someone who shows up ready to contribute a leech just because they aren't in your shell. I agree that they would not be able to clear without your group, but individually you all could say that. Nobody is soloing confluxes. If not being able to down a boss without the help of other people is the only criteria for being a leech, then we're all guilty.

[zagex]

People are using the word leech for anyone who enters not in your main alliance? I don't see how they're leeching if they contribute to damage, healing or tanking unless they just stand off in a corner out of AoE range and lot everything.

You can't call someone who shows up ready to contribute a leech just because they aren't in your shell. I agree that they would not be able to clear without your group, but individually you all could say that. Nobody is soloing confluxes. If not being able to down a boss without the help of other people is the only criteria for being a leech, then we're all guilty.

They're leeching because
1) we can easily clear the chamber without them
2) (For conflux 2) we're pulling the boss only and they're just off to the side fighting babies that they grab from our sac pull and consequently taking one of the top 5 chests away from our linkshell
3) they're lotting our shit, either taking coins away from our people, or money drops

Also, we don't call them leechers, we call them faggots

[Thorny]

If not being able to down a boss without the help of other people is the only criteria for being a leech, then we're all guilty.

Within a linkshell, you're happy/willing to provide that help. You're forced to provide it for outsiders. Key point.

I had a melee RDM following us around in conflux 5, meleeing everything, including the hydra boss. He got one of the personal chests because that playstyle makes him eat a lot of aoe, he has no risk of pulling hate, and he increases the amount of TP or tanks eat by about 50%. He in no way helped our run(if anything, made it more difficult with the additional tp), and he still got 2 pouches out of his box and attempted to lot every gil drop in our treasure pool. I don't see how that can be called anything other than leeching.

[Babu]

They're leeching because
1) we can easily clear the chamber without them
2) (For conflux 2) we're pulling the boss only and they're just off to the side fighting babies that they grab from our sac pull and consequently taking one of the top 5 chests away from our linkshell
3) they're lotting our shit, either taking coins away from our people, or money drops

Also, we don't call them leechers, we call them faggots

I guess I should have made it clear first, but I don't condone anyone rolling on everything in the pool at the end. If I pug with a shell I don't roll for anything but the coins I'm after. I believe this is fair. Also, people who are coming to a WoE outside of a shell should have the coins they're lotting in their /seacom.

1) This may be true, but as long as they are contributing to a win then they are entitled to share the spoils.
2) Personal chests are not really arguable. WoE has been out long enough that people should know how to place. If you're not placing then step up.
3) If it was your shit, it would fall into your bag. It goes into the pool and is fair game. It's not like this changed from how it used to be. If you don't like it you need to get a full zone or you need to get the fuck out.

If there are an alliance of you and only a few of them then they're probably not likely to beat all of you to loot in the end. If they do then learn to /random. Again, I do not agree with people rolling for multiple types of coins, but it should be fair to everyone and it is given their disadvantage in numbers, it usually is.

[Babu]

Within a linkshell, you're happy/willing to provide that help. You're forced to provide it for outsiders. Key point.

I had a melee RDM following us around in conflux 5, meleeing everything, including the hydra boss. He got one of the personal chests because that playstyle makes him eat a lot of aoe, he has no risk of pulling hate, and he increases the amount of TP or tanks eat by about 50%. He in no way helped our run(if anything, made it more difficult with the additional tp), and he still got 2 pouches out of his box and attempted to lot every gil drop in our treasure pool. I don't see how that can be called anything other than leeching.

There will always be greedy people in the game who want everything. That RDM is a prime example. The only issues I have with the loot pool deals with coins. I think you should only lot one type of coin and that's it. If you get a personal chest then obviously you did something to deserve it. I don't really feel that the way it is setup is the most fair and balanced, but considering an outsider has a 1 in however many people are in your LS run chance of getting loot, I would say it evens out.

[Xera]

2) Personal chests are not really arguable. WoE has been out long enough that people should know how to place. If you're not placing then step up.

Yes, lets just have everyone play like an absolute morons and risk the run because some random Perle kid.

My only gripe is its quite annoying when your shell is solely there for coins and the single guy you have working on a type of coins has to out lot the two leeches.

I have no clue how anyone can say it's fair to lot on even ground when our entire group is there to help one of our guys, it's not like we can all lot and combine our lots. Our 7 man effort vs someone's single effort, it just makes no sense how people can justify this, same mindset of people who live off their parents/welfare for life I guess.

[Khiinroye]

If you get a personal chest then obviously you came as a job that can whore points.

Fixed. Being a good DD or healer / nuker typically won't net you a chest. They usually goes to mages who melee / blu / dnc / pld due to being able to get several categories of points, rather than specializing in doing mostly their particular role needed to win a run. Fortunately, my ls has a pld pull, a person who comes blu, and uses dnc, so with a few melee mages to cover any extra spots, its easy to keep leeches from taking our chests.

[Babu]

Most of these arguments are nullified due to the fact that there are alternatives. If you absolutely must have a personal chest then play whichever job you feel gives you the best chance. If your LS is helping you get coins or if you're helping someone else get coins then adapt your group to support it. I guarantee you that if you take 36 blu in there will still only be 5 personal chests. Get over it.

As far as sellable loot goes it is your entire group against a few others. If they win a lot for something even though the odds are against it, suck it up. It's a game. Practically free to get in, you don't lose exp and you have a chance at some useful items, craftables and coins. You win some lots and you lose some.

The key point in all this is that if you have helpful group who is trying to get a weapon for someone, but you don't want to deal with people outside of your group... fuck off to abyssea and help them get a tier I weapon. An alliance of people trying to get coins in WoE is stupid. Your time would be much better spent splitting into trig groups for the real empyrean. I cannot have any sympathy for people who just bitch for the sake of bitching when there is clearly a better option.

[ronin sparthos]

So the better option is to go to Abyssea where only one person benefits over WoE where multiple people can make progress at the same time (in theory) along with making gil via chamber loot?

You're lacking on sense.

Yes, if your entire group loses lot to one douchebag then really you have no choice but to "suck it up" but to say that Abyssea is the easier option when the tier 1 weapon is fucking useless without the second tier of items is lulz.

Ultimately WoE is the better option for a group of people who want to proceed to finish weapons. If you have access to a group of people who can clear Flux 1-3-5, the process tilts even more in the favor of a group doing WoE over Abyssea.

This all assumes you don't give a fuck about the unique skinned weapons or the ODD.

[Xera]

Most of these arguments are nullified due to the fact that there are alternatives.

There is no alternative to people leeching your runs, unless your consider bringing 35 people with you as an alternative.

If you absolutely must have a personal chest then play whichever job you feel gives you the best chance.

Because thats how endgame works.

If your LS is helping you get coins or if you're helping someone else get coins then adapt your group to support it.

Adapt as in spend additional time since I have to gear some guy I don't know and has no interest in joining my group, k.

As far as sellable loot goes it is your entire group against a few others. If they win a lot for something even though the odds are against it, suck it up. It's a game.

I really don't care about equipment as any group can easily cap the entire shell on a conflux in a day.

Practically free to get in, you don't lose exp and you have a chance at some useful items, craftables and coins. You win some lots and you lose some.

It's not free, it's time spent. @30min clear with a 6 man shell, you're looking at 3 man hours of time spent compared to the leech's 30min.

The key point in all this is that if you have helpful group who is trying to get a weapon for someone, but you don't want to deal with people outside of your group... fuck off to abyssea and help them get a tier I weapon.

Yes, the fix for WoE is to not do WoE. This makes sense.

An alliance of people trying to get coins in WoE is stupid.

Alliance? Doing it wrong.

Your time would be much better spent splitting into trig groups for the real empyrean. I cannot have any sympathy for people who just bitch for the sake of bitching when there is clearly a better option.

Again this doesn't make sense, ignoring that you can turn out many more Emp-1 in comparison to true Emp in the same man hours.

[Babu]

So the better option is to go to Abyssea where only one person benefits over WoE where multiple people can make progress at the same time (in theory) along with making gil via chamber loot?

You're lacking on sense.

My only gripe is its quite annoying when your shell is solely there for coins and the single guy you have working on a type of coins has to out lot the two leeches.

Context. If you're working a single weapon then real emp is an option. I disagree that only one person benefits from having an emp weapon in your LS. Strongly disagree. If you aren't willing to help someone complete a weapon without benefit for yourself then you're just as greedy as the leech you complain about.

It's not free, it's time spent. @30min clear with a 6 man shell, you're looking at 3 man hours of time spent compared to the leech's 30min.

How do you stretch 30 mins into 3 hours? It doesn't matter if it's 6 people or 36 people, the time it takes to clear is all you or anyone else in the run invested. You might as well go ahead and stretch out the leech's 'man hours' for having to lot against entire groups of people. No idea why people want to make it sound like it's easy to stroll into another groups WoE runs and walk out with most of the coin and loot.

Alliance? Doing it wrong.

How else do you fit 7 members in a group?

Again this doesn't make sense, ignoring that you can turn out many more Emp-1 in comparison to true Emp in the same man hours.

Again, context. The post was a response to the post above mine. You had 7 people(I believe that qualifies as an alliance) and were trying to complete one weapon. These weapons are incredibly easy to come by in their current stage. Full emps take a while longer, but are easily worth it. I think my shell has 4-5 weapons we churned out in a bit over a month of WoE. Some of them nearly on par with relic performance at a fraction of the time spent to complete. Perspective for your 'man hours'.

[zagex]

The bottom line is we're bringing 6 or so people in our linkshell only. We can clear the zone and everyone (not count a boxed whm) can get a chest. We can distribute coins exactly how we want among ourselves. We -don't- need additional help from some random fag in the zone. We can clear the zone without him and get drops. That fag can't gets drop without us.

If a random fag does join, he's taking shit away that we're doing the work for. We're doing this event for ourselves and to help people in our linkshell. We don't want to waste time while some jackass comes in and steals drops from us. Any coin that some jerk steals means possibly another run or two that -we- have to waste time for. Therefore any fag who joins the zone is wasting our time and stealing our drops.

As for the argument to play w/e job however you want to nets you your own chest: That doesn't work when we're in a small group. Our rdm healer can't just stand in range of AoE nuking and curing himself to get a chest. Our sac puller has to take one for the team and die on every pull, limiting the xp he can get.

With regards to empyrean weapons, we're already working on empyrean weapons for some of the people in our WoE group. They're doing WoE for their secondary jobs. For others, they're mainly mage/support and getting a WoE weapon for secondary jobs also.

As far as sellable loot goes it is your entire group against a few others. If they win a lot for something even though the odds are against it, suck it up

In a recent example, we were in the middle of killing the final boss and then several people joined our run. We killed the boss and they proceeded to lot all the money drops and a pouch. The fact that this can happen makes this system flawed.

[Babu]

I can't keep defending posts I make because they're not universal to everyone's situation. I'm not going to bother to sit here and weave everyone different tissues based on how salty your tears are. I do have an idea how they could fix WoE though.

They should make it so no one else but your group can enter your conflux without the (hourglass/lamp/whatever) item. The moogle should charge 1M per item and the confluxes should be on 72 hour cooldown. Coin droprates should be decreased so it'll take months for a single person to complete a weapon. Increase the number of mobs, bosses and time it takes for completion up to around 3 hours. Make it just like dynamis. Hell, add the AF3 hands and body as rare drops from conflux 7.

[zagex]

They could lock the zone once you start, for one thing. That still doesn't get rid of some of the jerks.
An optional 50k dynamis glass would be a great addition too. You can choose to lock the zone out or you don't have to.

[Masamune]

They could lock the zone once you start, for one thing. That still doesn't get rid of some of the jerks.
An optional 50k dynamis glass would be a great addition too. You can choose to lock the zone out or you don't have to.

Nope. That would destroys the original idea of WoE: making it Campaign-like.

A possible fix IMHO would be to implement both of the following:
1. Make the Conflux Mega Boss stays claimed to the party/alliance who 1st claimed it. No outsiders can hit it.
2. Make the "bonus" for defeating the Mega Boss substantial for everyone in the party/alliance that defeated it.
Normal mobs in zone still have current rules, so outsiders can still play with them.
But the fix proposed above would make outsiders impossible to get inthe 5 highest ranks for loot if an alliance is in zone defeating Mega Boss.
On other hand, in the case of a simple PT killing normal mobs only, then see another PT entering the same zone to kill normal mobs only, both PTs will share the currently implemented ranking system.

No need to change anything else. Thoughts ?

EDIT: having SE read this is another story tough...