New Weaponskill Data Topic

[Stromgarde]

It may be just me/bad luck, but it seems to me that Sonic Thrust lacks the usual 1-hit WS accuracy bonus that we're accustomed to due to it's AOE nature, even on the primary target. Have other people had this experience as well?

[urat]

Sorry to bump the topic but its the only really relevant one to my questions.

First off, Aeolian Edge really shines in Abyssea. Assuming you have a black mage in your alliance, which you should, wait for there to be 4-5 mandies in the camp and get the blm to prep sleepga (or the bard's lullaby works great too)

Spoiler: show

http://i27.tinypic.com/213oqx0.jpg

Using Sekka + meditate + reverse flourish I could easily drop 3 AEs back to back on the mandies, doing upwards to a combined damage of 1.5K each.

Then the blackmage just drops a sleepga while I sit and laugh as they poke at my Fan dance for 30~40 damage and curing waltz myself until they're all asleep. Once we got into the groove of it it was easy as pie.

Not only that it rips mandies to shreds compared to other weaponskills. With the matt/macc potion + 10 int from crour prospector my single target Aeolian Edges were hitting for up to 500 damage. to compare, in the same gear Eviscration barely topped 200.

I think it's mostly due to the mandie's high evasion. I never ever missed a single AE, and never saw a resist. 100% accurate weaponskill is fucking gold for dancer.

So now I just want to verify we're pretty sure that it has an Int/matt modifier before I go spend piles of gil on an AE armor build. Dancer surprisingly has a notable amount of matt and int gear available.

Here's my current build I'm going for. I could also go after the magic att+8 or something Kila, that'd be a pretty nice dagger for this. I also already have hecates crown and as a nice little bonus my warwolf belt has magic att augmented on it by coincidence :D

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/169222

[FailureMidgard]

Redid a new set of Tornado Kick numbers. Used /thf this time to reduce error, and reconfigured TP build and target mobs to always get exact values. Would appreciate review/confirmation of my conclusions.

Summary

fTP: 2.25
Mods: 37.5% STR / 30% VIT

Source Data:

Spoiler: show

Reference values:
Max crit: 3.15 pDIF
Min crit: ~2.7 pDIF
Most crits: 3.0+ (min/max ratio of 1.05)
Full Min/Max ratio: 3.15/2.7 = ~1.166

alpha confirmed as 0.85 at level 80.

H2H skill: 315 (37 base dmg, 55 base footwork dmg, 63 base damage with fStr added)
Str: 68
Vit: 70
[WSC = 41 if 30% str, 40% vit]
Store TP: +11 >> 100.8 TP per weaponskill

Baseline: +5 str, +0 vit, Footwork, no kick shoes
727
697
694
684
724
711

Seem to be staying in the 3.0+ range (1.063 min/max ratio), so taking 727 as peak. That puts base at 231.


Add damage: KKs (+25)
902
900
852
870
879
773
776

902/773 = 1.167, should be full range, so 902 is peak, and 287 base.

287 - 231 = 56
56 / 25 = 2.24

With rounding, can comfortably say that fTP is 2.25.


Add vit: Genbu's Kabuto + Melee Cape + Bibiki Seashell = +24 vit. No kick shoes
698
756
743
765
658

Ratio is 1.163, so treating 765 as peak. That makes base 243.

243 - 231 = 12 point increase in base from 24 vit.

12 / 2.25 (fTP) = 5.3

5.3 / .85 (alpha) = 6.3

6.3 / 24 = 25%


Reset, add str: Pallas, Black Belt, Forager's, Usu legs for +24 str. No kick shoes.
715
748
749
741
775
768
772

741 to 775 is about 5%, which covers the majority of the results.

775 peak is 247 base.

247 - 231 = 16

16 / 2.25 = 7.1

7.1 / .85 = 8.4

8.4 / 24 = ~35% Str


Estimating max values using slight variances on the mods:

Base: 63 dmg
Str: 68+29=97
Vit: 70

Assuming 35% Str/25% Vit:

97*.35 + 70*.25 = 51 * .85 = 43
(63+43) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 751
too low

Assuming 35% Str/30% Vit:

97*.35 + 70*.30 = 54 * .85 = 45
(63+45) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 765
too low

Assuming 40% Str/30% Vit:

97*.40 + 70*.30 = 59 * .85 = 50
(63+50) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 800
too high

Assuming 40% Str/25% Vit:

97*.40 + 70*.25 = 56 * .85 = 47
(63+47) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 779
good (775 max)


Base: 63 dmg
Str: 68+5=73
Vit: 70+24=94

Assuming 40% Str/25% Vit:

73*.40 + 94*.25 = 52 * .85 = 44
(63+44) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 758
slightly low (got 765 max)
another +1 would cap at 765
so 53-54 before alpha
35% str/30% vit would match


Assuming 37.5% Str/30% Vit:
73*.375 + 94*.30 = 55 * .85 = 46
(63+46) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 772
good (got 765)

Retry Str set:
97*.375 + 70*.30 = 57 * .85 = 48
(63+48) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 786
good (got 775)

Base set:
73*.375 + 70*.30 = 48 * .85 = 40
(63+40) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 730
good (got 727)

KKs set:
73*.375 + 70*.30 = 48 * .85 = 40
(88+40) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 907
good (got 902)

Sorry if I'm missing something, but your tests seem off.

37 base damage is a weapon rank of floor[(37+3)/9]=4, fSTR cap of 4+8=12. I'm assuming this doesn't get reduced (may even get increased) with footwork, and furthermore I'm assuming that you got an fSTR of 8 by using the target's vitality. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this by now, but you need to have your baseline capped on fSTR, or you will see a larger increase in damage as you test a STR mod because you're adding damage from fSTR as well.

I think you need to redo/reanalyze this, and are probably looking at 35/35 or 30/30 (or maybe 35/30). And sorry for being a week behind, didn't really check the thread much.

[pooter01]

damage from H2H skill is not taken into account while calculating Wrank. Destroyers are only a rank 2, and footwork I believe is either rank 0 or rank 2.(0 would work with his Fstr cap of 8)

[FailureMidgard]

damage from H2H skill is not taken into account while calculating Wrank. Destroyers are only a rank 2, and footwork I believe is either rank 0 or rank 2.(0 would work with his Fstr cap of 8)

Ok, my bad on that then. Are you sure footwork is rank 0? I dunno, I find it very odd that they suddenly decided to make a WS with a 37.5 modifier when every WS to date has a multiple of 5% (which is what made me curious and looked into weapon rank to begin with). I'd venture a guess that the bonus base damage from footwork counts towards weapon rank at the very least, making the fSTR cap 10 rather than 8.

[Motenten]

Actually that's correct. Figured that out later, but forgot about its impact on these tests. Footwork is base rank of 2, while all kick damage shoes are rank 0, so FW is always rank 2.

I'll redo the math when I have some free time later today.

[Motenten]

Revised math:

Spoiler: show

Reference values:
Max crit: 3.15 pDIF
Min crit: ~2.7 pDIF
Most crits: 3.0+ (min/max ratio of 1.05)
Full Min/Max ratio: 3.15/2.7 = ~1.166

alpha confirmed as 0.85 at level 80.
Capped fStr of +10 (FW has WRank of 2)

H2H skill: 315 (37 base dmg, 55 base footwork dmg, 65 base damage with fStr added)
Str: 68
Vit: 70
[WSC = 41 if 30% str, 40% vit]
Store TP: +11 >> 100.8 TP per weaponskill

Baseline: +5 str, +0 vit, Footwork, no kick shoes
727
697
694
684
724
711

Seem to be staying in the 3.0+ range (1.063 min/max ratio), so taking 727 as peak. That puts base at 231.


Add damage: KKs (+25)
902
900
852
870
879
773
776

902/773 = 1.167, should be full range, so 902 is peak, and 287 base.

287 - 231 = 56
56 / 25 = 2.24

With rounding, can comfortably say that fTP is 2.25.


Add vit: Genbu's Kabuto + Melee Cape + Bibiki Seashell = +24 vit. No kick shoes
698
756
743
765
658

Ratio is 1.163, so treating 765 as peak. That makes base 243.

243 - 231 = 12 point increase in base from 24 vit.

12 / 2.25 (fTP) = 5.3

5.3 / .85 (alpha) = 6.3

6.3 / 24 = 25%


Reset, add str: Pallas, Black Belt, Forager's, Usu legs for +24 str. No kick shoes.
715
748
749
741
775
768
772

741 to 775 is about 5%, which covers the majority of the results.

775 peak is 247 base.

247 - 231 = 16

16 / 2.25 = 7.1

7.1 / .85 = 8.4

8.4 / 24 = ~35% Str


Estimating max values using slight variances on the mods:

str gear set:
Base: 65 dmg
Str: 68+29=97
Vit: 70
Target: 775

Assuming 35% Str/25% Vit:

97*.35 + 70*.25 = 51 * .85 = 43
(65+43) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 765
too low

Assuming 35% Str/30% Vit:

97*.35 + 70*.30 = 54 * .85 = 45
(65+45) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 778
possible

Assuming 40% Str/30% Vit:

97*.40 + 70*.30 = 59 * .85 = 50
(65+50) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 812
too high

Assuming 40% Str/25% Vit:

97*.40 + 70*.25 = 56 * .85 = 47
(65+47) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 793
too high

Probable: 35% str/30% vit


vit gear set:
Base: 65 dmg
Str: 68+5=73
Vit: 70+24=94
Target: 765


Assuming 35% Str/30% Vit:

73*.35 + 94*.30 = 53 * .85 = 45
(65+45) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 778
possible, slightly high


Assuming 35% Str/25% Vit:

73*.35 + 94*.25 = 49 * .85 = 41
(65+41) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 751
too low

Revision: 37.5% str mod is too high for tested values.

Retry with 35% str/30% vit:

Baseline:
68+5 str
70 vit
Base: d65
WSC: 73*.35 + 70*.3 = 46 * .85 = 39
65+39 * 2.25 * 3.15 = 737
Target: 727
~ possible
65+38 would hit exact


Baseline+KKs:
68+5 str
70 vit
Base: 65+25 = 90
WSC: 73*.35 + 70*.3 = 46 * .85 = 39
90+39 * 2.25 * 3.15 = 913
Target: 902
~ possible
90+38 would hit 907


-1 to base set would hit 727 with sample of 727.
-1 to kk set would hit 907 with sample of 902.
-1 to vit set would hit 771 with sample of 765.
-1 to str set would hit 771 with sample of 775. (fail)

If 35% str is correct, cannot reduce vit mod since that would cause the str set numbers to fail.

However there's room to grow the str mod slightly -and- tweak the vit mod down to yield the same WSC on the str set and reduce the WSC on the other sets.

Str Mod of 360/1024 = 0.3515625
Vit Mod of 290/1024 = 0.283203125

Base WSC (73 str, 70 vit): 45 * .85 = 38
Max: 65+38 * 2.25 * 3.15 = 727 (727 sample)

KK WSC (73 str, 70 vit): 45 * .85 = 38
Max: 90+38 * 2.25 * 3.15 = 907 (902 sample)

Vit WSC (73 str, 94 vit): 52 * .85 = 44
Max: 65+44 * 2.25 * 3.15 = 771 (765 sample)

Str WSC (97 str, 70 vit): 54 * .85 = 45
Max: 65+45 * 2.25 * 3.15 = 778 (775 sample)


This assumes flooring after each multiplication, except for before adding the WSC mods together.

Given that the original scaling estimate put the vit mod at ~25%, the ~28% value is probably more likely than the 30% mod.

So, revised estimate of Tornado Kick mods would be 360/1024 Str, 290/1024 Vit.

[lolwut]

Sorry to bump the topic but its the only really relevant one to my questions.

First off, Aeolian Edge really shines in Abyssea. Assuming you have a black mage in your alliance, which you should, wait for there to be 4-5 mandies in the camp and get the blm to prep sleepga (or the bard's lullaby works great too)

Spoiler: show

http://i27.tinypic.com/213oqx0.jpg

Using Sekka + meditate + reverse flourish I could easily drop 3 AEs back to back on the mandies, doing upwards to a combined damage of 1.5K each.

Then the blackmage just drops a sleepga while I sit and laugh as they poke at my Fan dance for 30~40 damage and curing waltz myself until they're all asleep. Once we got into the groove of it it was easy as pie.

Not only that it rips mandies to shreds compared to other weaponskills. With the matt/macc potion + 10 int from crour prospector my single target Aeolian Edges were hitting for up to 500 damage. to compare, in the same gear Eviscration barely topped 200.

I think it's mostly due to the mandie's high evasion. I never ever missed a single AE, and never saw a resist. 100% accurate weaponskill is fucking gold for dancer.

So now I just want to verify we're pretty sure that it has an Int/matt modifier before I go spend piles of gil on an AE armor build. Dancer surprisingly has a notable amount of matt and int gear available.

Here's my current build I'm going for. I could also go after the magic att+8 or something Kila, that'd be a pretty nice dagger for this. I also already have hecates crown and as a nice little bonus my warwolf belt has magic att augmented on it by coincidence :D

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/169222

You claim that they hit you for 30-40 dmg, while your screenshots show you getting beaten on for 45-97 dmg. That's an average of 70 dmg per hit, so maybe you meant to type "30+40"?

And if you're waltzing yourself (which you clearly weren't in the shot) how do you sustain tp to continue dealing dmg effectively over time? Do you just do this to blow your load every time sekka and meditate are both up, so your alliance can have it's time wasted by sleeping mobs that they could be plowing through?

It's an honest question, what's the point? It takes extra support since you need backup cures, is slower than traditional party killing, requires your blm to waste time/mp on things that are not nuking, and keeps you from dropping cures and sambas. I'm just not seeing what it's good for.

Not only that it rips mandies to shreds compared to other weaponskills.

Compared to other Dancer ws, you mean? I do 3x that dmg with Leaden Salute on mandies while still pulling and rolling, and don't need to change the party dynamic or another 3 support people to make it viable. Dnc is a great job already when used for things that it's good at. I don't get why you keep making these posts to try to force it to be a DD class when it has so much more potential just doing what it does best.

[Atoreis]

You claim that they hit you for 30-40 dmg, while your screenshots show you getting beaten on for 45-97 dmg. That's an average of 70 dmg per hit, so maybe you meant to type "30+40"?

And if you're waltzing yourself (which you clearly weren't in the shot) how do you sustain tp to continue dealing dmg effectively over time? Do you just do this to blow your load every time sekka and meditate are both up, so your alliance can have it's time wasted by sleeping mobs that they could be plowing through?

It's an honest question, what's the point? It takes extra support since you need backup cures, is slower than traditional party killing, requires your blm to waste time/mp on things that are not nuking, and keeps you from dropping cures and sambas. I'm just not seeing what it's good for.




Compared to other Dancer ws, you mean? I do 3x that dmg with Leaden Salute on mandies while still pulling and rolling, and don't need to change the party dynamic or another 3 support people to make it viable. Dnc is a great job already when used for things that it's good at. I don't get why you keep making these posts to try to force it to be a DD class when it has so much more potential just doing what it does best.

As for the first part I agree its some stupid idea with that sleep -> aoe etc.
As for the 2nd part i disagree, Dnc while doing his support job is still very good DD with his dps from melee AND WS If his Evisceration was doing top 200 dmg and that was best of his WSs thats something wrong with him not DNCs lol

[lolwut]

As for the first part I agree its some stupid idea with that sleep -> aoe etc.
As for the 2nd part i disagree, Dnc while doing his support job is still very good DD with his dps from melee AND WS If his Evisceration was doing top 200 dmg and that was best of his WSs thats something wrong with him not DNCs lol

Don't get me wrong, Dnc has nice supplementary dd in addition to their support work. My point that the support should be the focus, and the bonus dmg is an added bonus, just like with Cor. A good support player will do both in the way that is most beneficial to the party, anyone who isn't pushing themselves to do the best they can on both aspects is just gimping the group.

[Rionel]

Sadly, as a DNC you either have to choose support or damage.

If you choose support, WS-ing is out of the question when you have to heal people not to mention the chance of someone getting hurt very badly or dying as your building up TP again from 0TP. There's also the immense amount of job ability delay DNC suffers from cures, steps, etc., which is actually a huge killer. It's almost impossible to get any significant damage done other than auto-attack.

That is to say however, I do not mind in the least if I have to do this for the good of the party. We do get cures for a reason.

Choosing damage -requires- Saber Dance. Requires. Even if it's 1/5, it's really all you need for the most part. Obviously if you're in Saber Dance, Curing automatically becomes impossible unless you cancel it. Plus the only job abilities you should be doing is Haste Samba, Box Step before a WS and Building Flourish. You could maybe do Drain Samba III if you really wanted to help heal while maintaining your Saber Dance... but the loss of Haste Samba in some situations is just too great a loss.

Plus I mean, going from:
DW2 from /NIN + Suppanomimi (20%)

To:
DW4 naturally which allows /WAR + Two extra pieces of Enhance Dual Wield in slots that don't totally suck (45%)

Yanno, kinda helps. Mix that with Saber Dance and really...

But sorry, this is kind of off track.

Does anyone know if Tachi: Ageha is salvageable in any way possible? Or it's just of those WS that's doomed to be awful? I haven't seen any mods done for it or anything so I'm just curious.

[Aerynlia]

Turns mob black and has butterflies. I use it exclusively now.

[Sabishii]

Didn't see it mentioned, but Flash Nova generates a tremendous amount of hate. Idk if it's whm only, but god damn, if Pld need another hate tool and have access to this... We were skilling up in Ro'Mave and shit used that to burn TP, since it does shit damage and the mobs can live longer etc. Pulled, gekko w/soboro on a Darksteel Golem, she did a Flash nova, I followed with 2 more random WS and hate finally peeled off her but teetered between her and I back and forth the rest of the fight. It's definitely more hate than Flash. The potency of the flash is pretty good too btw, just observations though.

How about this? Kraken Club and shield wielding PLD spamming flash nova for hate? If it's a magic WS, then weapon damage doesn't matter much, right? And even if it does shitty damage with a low damage kraken club, it'd still produce consistent hate, while atonement's damage needs to build over time with hate. Guess it matters on the particularities of the hate it generates.

[Kirin]

Nothing concrete to offer in terms of Numbing Shot, as I wish more cor's have played around with it by now, but I cant seem to find much of anything on it.

I have however, seemed to see my damage jump by 150-200 using the same WS gear (i.e. 400-500 jumps to 550-700.) on Abyssea - Tahrongi Mandies. This is /war and using +str/r atk for detonator w/ ratk +3 Magnatus (no food, drk roll). Almost makes me wonder if Numbing Shot has 2 hits to it, the first being straight damage from gun or sword/dagger, and the second hit a traditional marksmanship WS mod. Anyone notice anything similar?

[lolwut]

Nothing concrete to offer in terms of Numbing Shot, as I wish more cor's have played around with it by now, but I cant seem to find much of anything on it.

I have however, seemed to see my damage jump by 150-200 using the same WS gear (i.e. 400-500 jumps to 550-700.) on Abyssea - Tahrongi Mandies. This is /war and using +str/r atk for detonator w/ ratk +3 Magnatus (no food, drk roll). Almost makes me wonder if Numbing Shot has 2 hits to it, the first being straight damage from gun or sword/dagger, and the second hit a traditional marksmanship WS mod. Anyone notice anything similar?

I've barely even touched it, to be honest. I fired a couple off using both my Slug and Detonator sets, and it was fairly lackluster in both.

[Pebe]

Well I think Numbing has really high potential. I did a 2.2k Numbing shot on a random mob La theine. Sure, it was a weak mob, but that is still alot of damage. I was doing consistant 450 Numbing shots on Yilbegan with wings up while he was doing a tp move, while the rng sidewinders were doing about 500 to 600 under the same conditions. I find that you want to stack as much str and ranged attack as possible for this weaponskill. Since it is more accurate than slug shot, doing so doesn't harm the acc that much. I forgot my pot au feus that day and had to settle with a squid sushi, so the damage should have been even higher. I'm not giving up on this weaponskill yet....

It looks way to cool @.@

Any info on cataclysm that I missed? Is it worth try to get for my summoner as a toy ?

[orson]

How about this? Kraken Club and shield wielding PLD spamming flash nova for hate? If it's a magic WS, then weapon damage doesn't matter much, right? And even if it does shitty damage with a low damage kraken club, it'd still produce consistent hate, while atonement's damage needs to build over time with hate. Guess it matters on the particularities of the hate it generates.

I'd be more worried about the TP spam the mob would be getting.

[Psion]

I'd be more worried about the TP spam the mob would be getting.

::experiences sudden flashback to 2004::

[pooter01]

Does anyone know if Tachi: Ageha is salvageable in any way possible? Or it's just of those WS that's doomed to be awful? I haven't seen any mods done for it or anything so I'm just curious.

The defense down effect is fairly potent, I finally leveled sam last night and unlocked it in abyssea. I was using soboro to get faster skillups, and opened each fight with ageha after i got it. things just tended to die much faster, and everyone said they were hitting much harder, until I switched back to hagun with YGK. My melee hits went from 30-50 to 60-80, and the occasional YGK with soboro went from an inconsistent 300-500 to more consistently 450+.

So I guess it's decent as a mini-angon, but that's about it.

Edit: and FYI... I'm still bitter over having to change to full perle last night because I had usu legs and not byakkos... i feel so cookiecutter now.

[Spider-Dan]

Well I think Numbing has really high potential.

Maybe if Detonator didn't exist.

Numbing Shot seems pretty impotent to me:

- melee range onry
- unimpressive damage
- useless TP mod
- lolskillchain attributes?

Refulgent Arrow is, at least, situationally useful and serves a unique purpose. Even Trueflight is more useful than Numbing Shot.