Octave Club

[Byrthnoth]

I'm glad you brought this up. I've been wondering for sometime what the future would hold for kraken/octave club. With weapons getting better, attack getting higher, New Minuet(s) added later, drk roll giving more attack due to higher base attack.....will kraken be phased out as a dominant zerg weapon? It seems like HP increases post 75 are quite small so the 76-99 levels may not give any boost to kraken other than 300ish HP.

Meanwhile, if this update is any indication, we will continue to see the base damage on weapons and ammo substantially increase. Not to mention the gear being added that seems to favor standard attacks vs. SE. Even if new mobs didn't resist SE (which it appears they will if recent history holds) how long before kraken (and octave at appropriate levels) is just for rangers, melee whms, and the occasional ninja in campaign?

Unless SE nerfs Feint or makes everything immune to Souleater, k-club in zergs would only be surpassed by the introduction of a superior multi-hit for DRKs to Souleater with (not likely).

[Thorny]

Haste caps. A kraken drk at capped haste maxes at around 17k damage in 30 seconds. A good MNK at 75 can put out 14k/minute with zerg buffs on cop dyna bosses, baha2, DL, other misc targets. 5 more level correction's pdif bonus in addition to their base damage increase through new weaponry and h2h skill while DRK gets next to nothing will push MNK closer to the 20k/minute mark while DRKs additional 200 hp only pushes them up to 1880/30 sec. Given that one chainspell lasts a minute, bringing MNKs with 2 chainstuns is going to be drastically more efficient than 1 more DRK with 1 chainstun.. and they don't get wrecked if a miasmic breath or flare slips through. On top of that, they deal 25-35% more damage during the rest of dynamis runs and are more useful for farming giant scales. As far as new targets, it'll depend if they resist souleater or have obscene enough defense mnk can't cap ratio, but if T4 ZNM and einherjar are any indication.. both scenarios are not likely to be met.

As far as the club: OAT at 76, tested with MNK/NIN wearing no other gear.

[Mizango]

I would think SE would tier the cop rings out to 99 eventually. But yeah, who knows.

Sort of what I was thinking too, I mean I do see them making adjustments to tiered equipment at some point. Well, I HOPE they are smart enough to recognize it and do so.

[Hercule]

A good DRK Kclub CAN do 30k dmg on 1 min with healing suport for the last 30sec, a MNK will need an army of healer and will not have Drain 2 (+the new Drk JA to augment drain) + armor to enhance Souleater + sub DRG for 5% haste earring or sub NIN to not be fucked from a TP move like King vinegarroon tp move (15 sec stun do you need it?) + LOL dread spike in case for 1k+ more dmg with hate

[Gadritan]

With all the gear added, accessories etc, and all the other changes, it's really jumping the gun to make any conclusions yet.

[Therin]

Haste caps. A kraken drk at capped haste maxes at around 17k damage in 30 seconds.

I've done 20-24k numerous times on Dynamis Lord, not sure where you're getting this number from.

A good MNK at 75 can put out 14k/minute with zerg buffs on cop dyna bosses, baha2, DL, other misc targets. 5 more level correction's pdif bonus in addition to their base damage increase through new weaponry and h2h skill while DRK gets next to nothing

I'd like to see some math on this. Destoyers will have a Delay of about 90, which means 1.5 seconds between attack rounds. If we assume 150 damage per fist (which is personally a LOT higher than I would normally assume, but let's calculate it high for the sake of argument) that's 12,000 damage in 1 minute, and a Kraken DRK can tap 20k in 30 seconds with ease, likely as high as 30,000 if he switches to a real weapon once Blood Weapon wears off.

DRKs additional 200 hp only pushes them up to 1880/30 sec.

wut. WITHOUT Drain II active I have 2040 in HP gear and that's with 25% gear Haste, still. Level 80 should increase that by about 100, and with new gear options you're looking at about another 100 so that's 2240 plus 300-400 from Drain II (not including the new JA since we don't really know how effective it's going to be currently), for a total of, conservatively, 2540 HP.

On top of that, they deal 25-35% more damage during the rest of dynamis runs and are more useful for farming giant scales.

No they don't, unless you have really fucking horrifically horrible DRKs in your linkshell (apparently you do). DRK shouldn't be losing to a MNK (they should be roughly equal assuming neither is targeting and the DRK doesn't have an Apocalypse, otherwise it will demolish the MNK) unless said DRK is asleep at the wheel or the MNK is targeting and the DRK doesn't have proper support/subjob. And who cares about Giant Scales exactly? Why even mention that?

As far as new targets, it'll depend if they resist souleater or have obscene enough defense mnk can't cap ratio, but if T4 ZNM and einherjar are any indication.. both scenarios are not likely to be met.

Yes, this is obviously true - if something resists Souleater DRK is at significant loss but right now there are only a few mobs that do that that you'd zerg anyway (T3 Einherjar bosses, mostly).

Not arguing that MNK isn't great because it is, considering the versatility of the job but it doesn't and won't ever hold a candle to DRK in a zerg situation unless, like you said, mobs just downright resist Souleater. Besides, this topic isn't debating the job's overall utility, it's debating the use of Octave Club, so your comments about MNK outside of a zerg are irrelevant.

[Hookah]

Something someone brought up in another thread but also seems applicable here, what about the skill caps at 99?

Drk only has a C- in club, which is only 220 at 75. If the difference in skill growth continues up to 99 the way it has up to this point, jobs using off weapons like this could become difficult.

[Therin]

It really won't make a lick of difference. With Feint and Madrigals you could hit AV while completely naked and the attack granted by skill is completely irrelevant for KC anyway because even if you hit for 0, with 2500 HP you'd still deal 250 (or 300 with Gloom Breastplate).

*EDIT* Well, not on AV obviously because he resists but you get my point. Skill means nothing for a Kraken DRK if the mob has Feint and you have SV'd Madrigals.

Octave Club won't work at 99 anyway and Kraken Club will likely not be worth the hassle over a fully upgraded Apocalypse with whatever ungodly amount of DMG and other stats they've added to it at that point. They're bound to add either OAT to relics or boost the Empyrean weapons will it and I'm sure that with DMG in the 120 range on the scythe, none of DRK's other options will be comparable.

[Hercule]

SCH are C+ on theyr best weapon, and SE continue to add DMG+ on theyr mythic staff, so i dont theyr going to be unanble to melee, this is an exemple, and about Feint, this made a lv 200 weapon capped on accu vs a lv 90 mob look like on ffxi calculator

[Tsuko_Asura]

I'd like to see some math on this. Destoyers will have a Delay of about 90, which means 1.5 seconds between attack rounds. If we assume 150 damage per fist (which is personally a LOT higher than I would normally assume, but let's calculate it high for the sake of argument) that's 12,000 damage in 1 minute, and a Kraken DRK can tap 20k in 30 seconds with ease, likely as high as 30,000 if he switches to a real weapon once Blood Weapon wears off.

Hey, I have an idea! Lets ignore Haste Samba, Kick Attacks, Double Attack, and Asuran Fists! You know, for the sake of keeping things accurate.

[Gadritan]

SCH are C+ on theyr best weapon, and SE continue to add DMG+ on theyr mythic staff, so i dont theyr going to be unanble to melee, this is an exemple, and about Feint, this made a lv 200 weapon capped on accu vs a lv 90 mob look like on ffxi calculator

Yes. Precisely.

[Tsuko_Asura]

By your own assumptions, Therin, just adding in the DA and KA procs that you seem to have neglected to include increases expected damage by over 6,000. This doesn't account for Asuran fists, which is obviously going to increase that by a fair amount, nor does it take into account that Faith Baghnakhs are a significantly better 'zerg weapon than Destroyers.

Erp, lets not forget that MNK is going to at least get one additional MA trait in the coming levels.

[Therin]

Yes. Precisely.

lol'd.

By your own assumptions, Therin, just adding in the DA and KA procs that you seem to have neglected to include increases expected damage by over 6,000. This doesn't account for Asuran fists, which is obviously going to increase that by a fair amount, nor does it take into account that Faith Baghnakhs are a significantly better 'zerg weapon than Destroyers.

You're not going to be using Asuran Fists during a zerg, unless I'm mistaken that would actually decrease your overall DoT until the very end, right? Also, Faith Baghnakhs will increase the damage but you're also not going to be hitting 150 per fist. I normally see MNKs doing 50-60 per fist with them, given that will increase with the increase in levels but 150 was being very generous. What would be expected? Maybe 90? 100?

Honestly I took every effort to give MNK the benefit of the doubt. In real situations I've never seen a MNK do over 5-6,000 damage in a zerg, even with Baghnahks, but it's possible I've not seen the full capabilities of the job so that's why I was being generous.

[barber2006]

Not arguing that MNK isn't great because it is, considering the versatility of the job but it doesn't and won't ever hold a candle to DRK in a zerg situation unless, like you said, mobs just downright resist Souleater. Besides, this topic isn't debating the job's overall utility, it's debating the use of Octave Club, so your comments about MNK outside of a zerg are irrelevant.

The reason I asked was basically because I figured it didn't warrant its own thread. Usually our dynamis lord parses looked something like this when I parsed them:

Kraken drk: 18k
Kraken drk: 18k
Merc Kris drk: 12k
rng: 11k
rng: 11k
various dd: 3-9k


I'm sure everyone has variance in their experience. But when I look at that 18k number (and I'm not saying thats the most they could do, just saying thats what they had done when DL died) and see those 10 and 11ks it just makes me wonder if the gap will close since it looks like the base damage of weapons will soar and HP gain from 76-->99 seems so small.


I mean, if you look at going from hellfire with silver bullets to the new magian damage gun with the new bullets you are looking at a 20-25% increase with the added attack. 4 more buffs like that and it seems the gap will close substantially.

[Gadritan]

The reason I asked was basically because I figured it didn't warrant its own thread. Usually our dynamis lord parses looked something like this when I parsed them:

Kraken drk: 18k
Kraken drk: 18k
Merc Kris drk: 12k
rng: 11k
rng: 11k
various dd: 3-9k

Your DDs are failing, or you're not setting up properly. A good war could get about 5k off two WSs alone.

[Therin]

Your DDs are failing, or you're not setting up properly. A good war could get about 5k off two WSs alone.

Well, to be fair, most shells do have 5-6 really good DDs and then another 5-6 of mediocre ones that just help out slightly. In every shell I've ever been in it's always the same 5-6 people topping parses and it's no different in a zerg - my experience has been similar to his, though we never used RNG on DL, just regular DDs, so I can't really comment on how they do.

I know WAR has been the only thing to come near beating me on Sarameya and Kirin, but I've never used a Kraken Club on those (because I can't two-hour on multiple runs), just Ridill.

[Tsuko_Asura]

lol'd.



You're not going to be using Asuran Fists during a zerg, unless I'm mistaken that would actually decrease your overall DoT until the very end, right? Also, Faith Baghnakhs will increase the damage but you're also not going to be hitting 150 per fist. I normally see MNKs doing 50-60 per fist with them, given that will increase with the increase in levels but 150 was being very generous. What would be expected? Maybe 90? 100?

Honestly I took every effort to give MNK the benefit of the doubt. In real situations I've never seen a MNK do over 5-6,000 damage in a zerg, even with Baghnahks, but it's possible I've not seen the full capabilities of the job so that's why I was being generous.

Using Boost during a zerg is dumb, using Asuran is not.

Based on the fact that I tallied up a little over 18k damage for a Destroyers MNK before accounting for WS damage and Faith being significantly better, I think its safe to say that you have most certainly not see the full capabilities of the job.

[Gadritan]

I know WAR has been the only thing to come near beating me on Sarameya and Kirin, but I've never used a Kraken Club on those (because I can't two-hour on multiple runs), just Ridill.

Right there with ya. Ridilleater was all I ever got to use. I was working with Galka hp though. :D

[Therin]

Using Boost during a zerg is dumb, using Asuran is not.

Based on the fact that I tallied up a little over 18k damage for a Destroyers MNK before accounting for WS damage and Faith being significantly better, I think its safe to say that you have most certainly not see the full capabilities of the job.

The longer the fight lasts, the more MNK catches up with DRK. How long was this fight that you tallied up 18k? I just can't see a MNK doing that much damage in the typical 30 to 45-second period that a mob like Dynamis Lord is alive.

[Max™]

Didn't Warfangs just get fixed, and options for like, holyshitballswtf Dmg+ knucks open up as well?