Octave Club

[Tsuko_Asura]

The longer the fight lasts, the more MNK catches up with DRK. How long was this fight that you tallied up 18k? I just can't see a MNK doing that much damage in the typical 30 to 45-second period that a mob like Dynamis Lord is alive.

That was based on a one minute fight. ~10-14k for 30-45 seconds.

[Therin]

With Faiths, your delay is 413, so with Hundred Fists (which apparently is equivalent 74% Haste according to Wiki) you're doing 33.52 attack rounds in a minute. That's 67 punches, and I assume it's a straight 1.5 average on the Faiths so that's exactly 100.5 hits. What's a MNK's double attack rate? 5% right?

That would put it at 105 hits attempted, and 99 landed (assuming 95% accuracy).

Assuming 10% Kick Attacks rate, you'd attempt 10 kicks and land 9 of them.

So, to deal 18,000 damage in that time frame you'd have to average 166.67 average damage per hit, or if you get off five Asuran Fists for 800 damage each (total of 4,000) and we assume there's no detrimental effect in taking the time to use it, 129.62 average damage per hit.

Optimal scenario, it could be possible, but if you use any JAs, cast Utsusemi once, miss more than 5% of the time, double attack less than 5% of the time, Kick Attack less than 10% of the time, deal less than 800 damage average for each Asuran Fists, or if WSing has any detrimental effect whatsoever on your attack speed (which I'm fairly positive it will, doesn't it reset your delay, to 107, after each activation?), you've got pretty much no chance at making it happen.

And I still don't think 129.62 average damage per swing is possible.

And all a Kraken DRK has to do is activate two job abilities and stand there and he's basically guaranteed to do that much damage in half the time.

[Thorny]

I've done 20-24k numerous times on Dynamis Lord, not sure where you're getting this number from.

Ok. Get a drain II like that on bahamut for me please, slugger. If you want me to rework for your hp, I will later, I went with mine(taru and mp merits, admittedly pretty big downside).

I'd like to see some math on this. Destoyers will have a Delay of about 90, which means 1.5 seconds between attack rounds. If we assume 150 damage per fist (which is personally a LOT higher than I would normally assume, but let's calculate it high for the sake of argument) that's 12,000 damage in 1 minute, and a Kraken DRK can tap 20k in 30 seconds with ease, likely as high as 30,000 if he switches to a real weapon once Blood Weapon wears off.

4 DRKS, 1 CSS, assorted buffers = 120k then, by your assumption of 30k damage(btw, you're implying you'll do 10k damage with a real weapon and no BW in 30 seconds while saying MNK does 6k in the same timeframe.. and unless you're using 3 rotating brds you won't have minuets on drk while the mnk will).
3 MNKS, 2 CSS, assorted buffers = 120k, with the drastic added benefit of not being raped by screwups

Miasmic breath is extremely fast. fairy ring takes time to kill, one breath will ruin a drk zerg. It won't even effect a MNK zerg. DL -ga's won't do shit, even oblivion smash won't usually kill MNKs.. and any damage taken is lost damage dealt. MNK is more reliable.

wut. WITHOUT Drain II active I have 2040 in HP gear and that's with 25% gear Haste, still. Level 80 should increase that by about 100, and with new gear options you're looking at about another 100 so that's 2240 plus 300-400 from Drain II (not including the new JA since we don't really know how effective it's going to be currently), for a total of, conservatively, 2540 HP.

If you have more hp, you gain less from adding it. Going 2340-2540 is an 8.5% increase in damage, nothing anywhere near what mnk will get from level correction alone going up to 80.. much less improvements higher.

No they don't, unless you have really fucking horrifically horrible DRKs in your linkshell (apparently you do). DRK shouldn't be losing to a MNK (they should be roughly equal assuming neither is targeting and the DRK doesn't have an Apocalypse, otherwise it will demolish the MNK) unless said DRK is asleep at the wheel or the MNK is targeting and the DRK doesn't have proper support/subjob. And who cares about Giant Scales exactly? Why even mention that?

Are you retarded? Do the math on damage dealt per second with normal buffs comparing an apoc drk to a MNK. Vs a normal DRK, assuming you use food and give your dd brd cor dnc like you should, the MNK will win by 25-35%. 2/3 the delay with double benefit from fSTR AND higher base damage is pretty fucking beast, sorry.

Yes, this is obviously true - if something resists Souleater DRK is at significant loss but right now there are only a few mobs that do that that you'd zerg anyway (T3 Einherjar bosses, mostly).

Does souleater work full strength on VNM? I was under the impression it doesn't(serious question). I know it doesn't on znm or einherjar, SE has been trying to phase it out.

Not arguing that MNK isn't great because it is, considering the versatility of the job but it doesn't and won't ever hold a candle to DRK in a zerg situation unless, like you said, mobs just downright resist Souleater. Besides, this topic isn't debating the job's overall utility, it's debating the use of Octave Club, so your comments about MNK outside of a zerg are irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
Yea, who cares if a MNK does 25-35% more damage the rest of a dynamis run.. the only thing that matters is the 1-2 minute boss fight that you'll overkill anyway if you don't suck. Do you read the shit you post?

And all a Kraken DRK has to do is activate two job abilities and stand there and he's basically guaranteed to do that much damage in half the time.

Even a minor aoe drastically impedes a Kraken DRK's damage. It does nothing to MNK. Don't even try to pretend you've never seen a fucked up chainstun. You don't use hundred fists btw, you use DNC. 43.3% magic + 25% gear = 68.3%, haste samba = 78.3%. Not only is it more haste, it lasts as long as you want it to. On top of that, your retarded anecdotes about DAs and misses apply equally to KC zerg.. except you have less chances to swing and as such a higher stdev. That means you're more likely to come out with shit damage than a MNK is.

Speaking for current zergs, if nothing goes wrong and you don't suck, you've already won. Bringing a DD that'll take some of the risk out of boss ight and do extra damage the rest of the event is easily more utilitarian than killing the boss 30 seconds faster. This is all speaking at current/lv80 hypotheticals though, by 90 drk will be getting another 10% damage from Hp and mnk will be getting near +50% through level correction, h2h skill, and other shit. DRK is dead, k.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Hundred Fists is trash for zergs, any MNK being compared to a KC-DRK can get 78% haste without it.

MNK is going to have ~14% DA rate per fist(which stacks with Faith) with Brutal Earring and WAR.

Kick Attacks are meritable, bring it up to a 15% proc rate per round.

[Therin]

Ok. Get a drain II like that on bahamut for me please, slugger. If you want me to rework for your hp, I will later, I went with mine(taru and mp merits, admittedly pretty big downside).

I'm assuming DL here, Bahamut has a max HP of 25k so it's not even worth two-houring for. Even still it's not hard to break 200-300 with Drain II if you know what you're doing (Dark skill and Dark Seal).

I know it doesn't on znm or einherjar, SE has been trying to phase it out.

wut? Souleater works just perfectly on all ZNMs (admittedly never fought PW, but the others it works fine) and all Einherjar bosses aside from those in T3. It also works on all VNMs that I've fought with the exception of Yilbegan and Lord Ruthven - never tried DRK on those.

Yea, who cares if a MNK does 25-35% more damage the rest of a dynamis run.. the only thing that matters is the 1-2 minute boss fight that you'll overkill anyway if you don't suck. Do you read the shit you post?

Except it won't, unless you're not giving them equal buffs or something like that.

Hundred Fists is trash for zergs, any MNK being compared to a KC-DRK can get 78% haste without it.

MNK is going to have ~14% DA rate per fist(which stacks with Faith) with Brutal Earring and WAR.

Kick Attacks are meritable, bring it up to a 15% proc rate per round.

Doesn't /WAR defeat the purpose of using MNK for extra survivability/reliability?

Admittedly I didn't account for Kick Attack merits, nor the extra Haste, I was assuming Hundred Fists would be optimal.

[Thorny]

I'm assuming DL here, Bahamut has a max HP of 25k so it's not even worth two-houring for. Even still it's not hard to break 200-300 with Drain II if you know what you're doing (Dark skill and Dark Seal).

Alright, address the relevant point: Vastly superior DD with lower risk on zerg vs 30 second faster fight when you need 1 CSS anyway.

wut? Souleater works just perfectly on all ZNMs (admittedly never fought PW, but the others it works fine) and all Einherjar bosses aside from those in T3. It also works on all VNMs that I've fought with the exception of Yilbegan and Lord Ruthven - never tried DRK on those.

It doesn't work on tinnin, I assume it didn't on the other t4 ZNM. As far as VNM, like I said, I didn't know.

Except it won't, unless you're not giving them equal buffs or something like that.

78.3% haste vs 80%, 8.5% attack speed for drk if allowed to fulltime hasso and keep aftermath up. That's 8.5% TP/WS damage.

15% kick attacks rate, 5% DA rate. 2.25 / 2.1 = 7.1% ws damage and .071 * (45/63) = 5.07% tp damage

for melee damage, d:63 del:174 vs d:130 del:513 = 42.8% tp damage from destroyers before factoring crits(if both capped fstr)

souleater will be about 25 hits and 3 ws, which is 3700 damage/5 min extra if healing is kept up

3700/5 = 740/minute

As a general approxmation, if you're doing more than 3000 melee damage/minute and have haste samba, dia, and minuet or chaos, destroyers mnk outdamages apocalypse even with full 60s souleater and fulltime hasso. If you don't have those buffs, you should consider working on your party dynamics. I easily do double that in limbus/dynamis/einherjar/merits/salvage, so I think it's safe to say if you have proper buffs MNK will pull ahead in almost any situation.

Shut up and go away or post something with reasoning more than 'DRK is good because I said so'.

[Therin]

It doesn't work on tinnin, I assume it didn't on the other t4 ZNM. As far as VNM, like I said, I didn't know.

Oh, Tinnin. Never used melee on Tinnin at all, it's easier just to BLM burn.

Shut up and go away or post something with reasoning more than 'DRK is good because I said so'.

Brought to you by, another outrageous Thorny vacuum scenario which will never happen in real life.

[Max™]

Brought to you by, another outrageous Thorny vacuum scenario which will never happen in real life.

http://posterous.com/getfile/files.p...scaled1000.png

[Villian]

Not to derail but isn't DD zerg for Tinnin faster? Not sure if there were any blms involved in Tinnin zerg thou.

[lamp]

Doesn't /WAR defeat the purpose of using MNK for extra survivability/reliability?

Admittedly I didn't account for Kick Attack merits, nor the extra Haste, I was assuming Hundred Fists would be optimal.[/QUOTE]

I can only speak from Kirin/Bahamut experience, but i would always /WAR, and i was the only MNK to do so for my ls, i always came top parse of the MNKs and never once died, but that was because the DRKs had hate/Fast healing.

[Thorny]

Brought to you by, another outrageous Thorny vacuum scenario which will never happen in real life.

Suggest an alternative scenario. March march min min because your gimp shell has no COR or DNC? In that case, MNK still beats a non-apoc DRK by 28% and only loses to apoc by ~1.5%. Seriously, you can insult my 'vacuum situations' but your word means nothing until you can post an alternative situation where your retarded logic makes sense.

Furthermore, it's not a vacuum to me, as my best DD party always has BRD COR DNC or BRD BRD DNC..

[Therin]

Your situations are always these contrived optimized pipe dream situations that never exist in reality. Anyone can go and say they always have the best party setups and that they never lose any buffs for an entire 3.5 hours of an event, but that doesn't change the fact that it will rarely happen. Most people hate playing support, and most people hate playing Dynamis. People will literally not log on if they think they have to come play BRD for 3.5 hours in the average linkshell - it's the sad truth but it is true.

I would put money on only 1 out of 10 linkshells having the support that would be "necessary" in your world to play this game - two BRDs (or BRD+COR) for your melee parties in Dynamis? Are you serious? So I'd need to bring 6 BRDs to my Dynamis runs and that's without putting any in BLM parties. God, it'd be great if I had 6 people who were that obsessed with BRD and that obsessed with Dynamis, but it's just not going to happen. Ever.

Do your math with one BRD and then you'll see what I mean. If a shell can field three DD parties of DDx4, BRD, Healer (COR is most likely going in the BLM party unless you have a LOAD of people in your shell) they're better off than most groups already.

Having that kind of support is realistic for a 30-minute event that nearly everyone is rewarded from, like Einherjar or for zergs, but it just isn't for Dynamis.

[Thorny]

Your situations are always these contrived optimized pipe dream situations that never exist in reality. Anyone can go and say they always have the best party setups and that they never lose any buffs for an entire 3.5 hours of an event, but that doesn't change the fact that it will rarely happen. Most people hate playing support, and most people hate playing Dynamis. People will literally not log on if they think they have to come play BRD for 3.5 hours in the average linkshell - it's the sad truth but it is true.

Buffs drop. That effects everyone. I can redo the math with buffs only on 75% of the time if you want, MNK will still win.

I would put money on only 1 out of 10 linkshells having the support that would be "necessary" in your world to play this game - two BRDs (or BRD+COR) for your melee parties in Dynamis? Are you serious? So I'd need to bring 6 BRDs to my Dynamis runs and that's without putting any in BLM parties. God, it'd be great if I had 6 people who were that obsessed with BRD and that obsessed with Dynamis, but it's just not going to happen. Ever.

BLM parties? None of your players have BRD mules? Lol.

Do your math with one BRD and then you'll see what I mean. If a shell can field three DD parties of DDx4, BRD, Healer (COR is most likely going in the BLM party unless you have a LOAD of people in your shell) they're better off than most groups already.

With one BRD, apoc wins by a large margin. MNK still destroys normal DRK by about the same. All you're doing is pointing out minor things in the vain hope they'll make you right, name any set of circumstances and I'll math them out for you. MNK will still win.

Having that kind of support is realistic for a 30-minute event that nearly everyone is rewarded from, like Einherjar or for zergs, but it just isn't for Dynamis.

Okay, so your shell can't field bards for your DD. Name your exact setup for a given run and approximate how much songs will be down, I'll do the math for DRK vs MNK. Monk will still win, and as an aside, get members that care about more than themselves.

[Tsuko_Asura]

All I saw was BLM parties

[DIABEETUS]

So uh, other than you douches arguing about stupid crap, anyone know if octave works at 80?

[Acorn]

it works

[Massimo]

Confirming this^ Definitely works.

[Thorny]

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/144...7dynamisva.jpg

80 secs start to dead, didn't piggyback CSS so last 20 seconds got a few breaths off. One SV, one CSS, 3 MNKs(without hundred fists), no wild card, etcetc. 12 people total. In addition to the extra hp and failure to lose damage if aoed, a group of 18 could easily manage to have a second attempt available in the case of a fail for DL or CoP if they were unlucky as the key DD don't require 2hr. This is with 2 MNK80 and one MNK78, none of which had capped skill.. as you approach 99, they'll get more and more powerful. Other people engaged are a /ra COR(was 78ish, skilling up) and a THF without proper buffs.

[Atoreis]

Hundred Fists is trash for zergs, any MNK being compared to a KC-DRK can get 78% haste without it.

MNK is going to have ~14% DA rate per fist(which stacks with Faith) with Brutal Earring and WAR.

Kick Attacks are meritable, bring it up to a 15% proc rate per round.

Also I think (tho only eye balling ) that you cant kick attack during HF which is another - of this abi compere to 78 haste with dnc.

[Onorgul]

You Kick during Hundred Fists. I... oh god, my head hurts.