Accession/Manifestation Applications

[Bloomonkey]

Didn't SE show off Manifestation Stun? lol...

[Enygma55]

The LA DA penalty for a RDM is Negligible with all the fastcast and haste there's not much difference in recast timers. Haste pretty much cancels out the 20% penalty.

You also get full capped (270+) dark skill for drain/aspir and the occasional 50% spell speed when shit hits the fan.

Light arts for healing purposes alone is worth the sub ( white magic is 90% of all spells u cast )

[sruon]

Didn't SE show off Manifestation Stun? lol...

Manifestation Stun works or am I missing something? Because SCH/DRK sure as hell do work.

[Khamsin]

Yes, but being in Light Arts messes up your recast timers for all black magic and is especially painful on Sleep/Gravity/Bind. Switching to Dark Arts for a single spell (in most situations) is silly. I will occasionally cast a Cure IV while under Addendum: Black because I'd rather take the MP hit than the stratagem hit. Likewise, it makes little sense to switch out of Addendum: White to cast 1-2 black magic spells, especially if you need the status removal as a sub because your stratagems are on a 2 minute timer.

True, but for the occasional sleep/dispel/gravity, it's not a big deal. If I were fighting Nightmare Crawlers (whose Sticky Thread overwrites Haste), for example, I'd be more than fine keeping addendum: white up the whole time to erase slow, and still dispel cocoon.

If it were a lowman limbus type situation, where I was doing everything, then I might not sub /SCH at all. But in a regular party, sleep/dispel/grav isn't a frequent thing (and if it is, your BRD is doing the sleep/dispel usually), and in an alliance, either you'll be on healing duty or sleep/grav duty (I don't consider dispelling during light arts a big deal) and you'll have backup from other PT members, too.

Why Regen3 but not Phalanx2?
Why Shell5 but not Bio3?
Why Refresh but not Sacrifice?

I just found it more odd that Bio II worked but not Bio III. Or Phalanx but not Phalanx II. My guess was that they forgot to flag something on merit spells.

Here's another question I forgot to test: Do the unaccesionable spells that should work but don't gain the bonus from Light Arts? Can they be Penury and Celerity'd?

[Mercilessturtle]

If it were a lowman limbus type situation, where I was doing everything, then I might not sub /SCH at all.

That's the point. Sch was already the best subjob in the general case, with exceptions forcing you to sub whm or blm (or nin). Needing to main heal and handle frequent grav/sleep/dispel is one of those exceptions where you sch sub isn't ideal.

[Khamsin]

That's the point. Sch was already the best subjob in the general case, with exceptions forcing you to sub whm or blm (or nin). Needing to main heal and handle frequent grav/sleep/dispel is one of those exceptions where you sch sub isn't ideal.

Depending on how frequent and exclusive your grav/sleep/dispel duties are, /SCH might be better, afterall.

You get sleepga II, celerity if sleep timer's an issue, or graviga/dispelga/bindga.

As an example, usually I'm in dynamis as a healing RDM, but a couple times (say, in tavnazia) I've been assigned to assist the BLMs with crowd control. /SCH would be nice as part of the BLM PT both to refreshga, and since you're not primarily healing you can keep dark arts on all the time. Or, at least, switch back and forth freely since you don't need to worry about addendums. And if you have a spare stratagem, a dispelga never hurt anybody.

[Pandorablue]

That's the point. Sch was already the best subjob in the general case, with exceptions forcing you to sub whm or blm (or nin). Needing to main heal and handle frequent grav/sleep/dispel is one of those exceptions where you sch sub isn't ideal.

I can't recall the last time I went to any form of event/party on WHM where I wasn't expected to just cure/haste/erase/-na. I prefer /BLM for warp, but /SCH is the winner for anything I need to do on WHM.

[Spider-Dan]

Upon further reflection, I think the rule really is as simple as "If a SCH will not be able to cast it, it cannot be Accessioned/Manifestationed" (from a spell disqualification standpoint). That's the simplest and easiest way to prevent x/SCH from outshining SCH/x in the long term (at least, from an AOE stratagem standpoint).

If this is true, it means that SCH will get Regen3 and Shell5, but it also means that SCH will NOT get Cure V.

[Onorgul]

That's the simplest and easiest way to prevent x/SCH from outshining SCH/x in the long term

That's the same thought I had. But for Cure V/VI, though, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what it is that prevents Scholar from supplanting White Mage entirely now that Haste is at its disposal. The only real downside is that powering up their Cure IV obviously dumps a lot of Enmity onto them whereas Cure V is negligible. I'm sort of missing where the balance here is, but my bias is pretty obvious.

[Khamsin]

That's the same thought I had. But for Cure V/VI, though, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what it is that prevents Scholar from supplanting White Mage entirely now that Haste is at its disposal. The only real downside is that powering up their Cure IV obviously dumps a lot of Enmity onto them whereas Cure V is negligible. I'm sort of missing where the balance here is, but my bias is pretty obvious.

Maybe they thought SCH with Cure V would obsolete WHM or something, who knows what's in SE's minds.

[Niiro]

Maybe they thought SCH with Cure V would obsolete WHM or something, who knows what's in SE's minds.

It would certainly be stickin it's dick into low enmity, high potency territory that WHM usually has to itself.

But it's not like SE can't change their mind later on, or that they can't prevent a spell from being Accession'd simply because it would be extremely useful (see: Haste).

But like ppl have been saying, if SCH can't access the spell sooner or later (including via SJs) it doesn't seem to be AoEable.

Seems to hold true.

[Mercilessturtle]

Khamsin, nobody is arguing with you, we're all agreeing. Everyone you have replied to is saying to use /sch. Just because they point out that there are cases where you need a different sub (to pre-emptively ward off people jumping all over it), don't ignore the actual intent of their posts. Nobody is trying to convince you not to /sch, and the post that started this whole thing was specifically encouraging going /sch.

Pandorablue, we're talking subs for rdm. There was always virtually no reason for whm to ever be anything other than /sch.

[Pandorablue]

True, but in the thread, we're talking about SCH as a subjob in general.

It's going to become a real challenge to pick one for WHM after 82, when RDM offers Refresh (I don't know if I'm alone in thinking that Sublimation is the most annoying ability to use ever) and Convert, versus the bonuses from Light Arts.

The fact that not that many useful spells work with Accession only supports the decision to choose RDM over SCH.

[Khamsin]

Khamsin, nobody is arguing with you, we're all agreeing. Everyone you have replied to is saying to use /sch. Just because they point out that there are cases where you need a different sub (to pre-emptively ward off people jumping all over it), don't ignore the actual intent of their posts. Nobody is trying to convince you not to /sch, and the post that started this whole thing was specifically encouraging going /sch.

Pandorablue, we're talking subs for rdm. There was always virtually no reason for whm to ever be anything other than /sch.

I wasn't arguing with anyone, either. I've also been saying to use /SCH, and in some cases, not to (like lowman limbus).

[Priran]

I don't think /RDM will trump /SCH for WHM. People like to forget Refresh costs MP to cast, so the difference between Refresh and Sublimation really just comes down to the 30s delay on reactivating it after completion and that you'll still technically need Stoneskin on to rest.

Convert is a little less than twice as effective as using all your charges on Penury Cure 6, but SCH sub also offers you some flexibility in being able to use Celerity or Accession, as well as the skill boosts that come from Arts giving a boost to Barspells and enfeebles as well as allowing WHM to half-decently cast Aspir.

[Spider-Dan]

That's the same thought I had. But for Cure V/VI, though, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what it is that prevents Scholar from supplanting White Mage entirely now that Haste is at its disposal. The only real downside is that powering up their Cure IV obviously dumps a lot of Enmity onto them whereas Cure V is negligible. I'm sort of missing where the balance here is, but my bias is pretty obvious.

Well, if the rule actually works like we suspect, then the way to allow WHM to use Accession on Cure5 would be... if SCH got Cure5. And I think we can agree that such an event would be a f*cking rough day for WHMs.

In fact, once you start to look at things through that prism, Accession becomes a lot less attractive as a SJ ability (from a job desirability standpoint).

[Onorgul]

In fact, once you start to look at things through that prism, Accession becomes a lot less attractive as a SJ ability (from a job desirability standpoint).

Does it really? I'm definitely irritated that Haste cannot be hit with Accession, but I honestly wasn't counting on Sacrifice working (because we have Esuna for a reason). Accession Cure V would probably be pretty broken, especially for a job that can already imitate the effect with none of the Enmity reduction. [Actually, Enmity as a whole is a pretty broken metric in this game as everyone except tanks seems to generate too much of it, but that's an argument for another time and place.] Either way, for the most part, I was waiting on Accession just to be able to get Erase or Blindna cast quickly on my party when I didn't want to muddle around with changing my stances and casting Sacrifice first. Divine Benison helps a bit in reducing the lousy cast time of certain status removal spells, but not nearly enough.

Personally, I'm still going to enjoy Scholar as a support job. Conserve MP, Aspir, Drain, protection from Sleep, inherent reduction in cast time and cost on every spell I use, and a guarantee that I won't be wasting ticks of Refresh (because I won't be getting it) all add up pretty well in my book. Convert is a mocker. I'm just having trouble figuring out what makes White Mage special beyond being able to apply Subtle Blow to a party and remain more comfortably near the bottom of the hate list. Scholar being as capable as White Mage and Black Mage at the same time, to say nothing of soon having access to almost all of Red Mage's job-defining capabilities, leaves it seeming too strong for a hybrid.

[Uzor]

I don't think /RDM will trump /SCH for WHM. People like to forget Refresh costs MP to cast, so the difference between Refresh and Sublimation really just comes down to the 30s delay on reactivating it after completion and that you'll still technically need Stoneskin on to rest.

Convert is a little less than twice as effective as using all your charges on Penury Cure 6, but SCH sub also offers you some flexibility in being able to use Celerity or Accession, as well as the skill boosts that come from Arts giving a boost to Barspells and enfeebles as well as allowing WHM to half-decently cast Aspir.

Half-decently?

I love Aspir from /SCH sub after this boost. I can usually Aspir mobs for upwards of 320 MP. That's not half-decent, its amazing, since you can do it every min. That alone trumps RDM when there's mobs with MP around.

[Priran]

Half-decently?

I love Aspir from /SCH sub after this boost. I can usually Aspir mobs for upwards of 320 MP. That's not half-decent, its amazing, since you can do it every min. That alone trumps RDM when there's mobs with MP around.

the boost to aspir is a known issue, probably about to get fixed.

[Uzor]

the boost to aspir is a known issue, probably about to get fixed.

Oh well, but it was fun while it lasted!