Random Fail VIII: Your Not Fail, You're Are.

[Ohaigaiz]

Someone said this earlier today, lol'd pretty hard.

He should post himself for wasting his abyssea time on town gear http://images.bluegartr.com/forum/im...ns/mmithra.png

[FailureMidgard]

Someone said this earlier today, lol'd pretty hard.

He should post himself for wasting his abyssea time on town gear http://images.bluegartr.com/forum/im...ns/mmithra.png

I'm really confused/getting whooshed here I guess? What's so funny about a creed collar and why are you bashing it?

[stewie]

I'm really confused/getting whooshed here I guess? What's so funny about a creed collar and why are you bashing it?

[Neck] All Races
Reduces Enmity decrease when taking physical damage Adds "Refresh" effect
LV 80 PLD

I assume.

[FailureMidgard]

[Neck] All Races
Reduces Enmity decrease when taking physical damage Adds "Refresh" effect
LV 80 PLD

I assume.

Isn't paladin the best tank for anything you can't engage now? ZOMG stop living in 2009, etc. ;p

[fredjanx]

Isn't paladin the best tank for anything you can't engage now? ZOMG stop living in 2009, etc. ;p

BLU (inb4 lawl)
Self cures, real/more enmity spells (Blank Gaze is basically old dispel), Cocoon for comparable defense, self Refresh/Haste, Magic Def spell, etc
BLU tanking was actually viable when RDM could still tank, but it lacked Fast Cast III
also, afaik Thorny has always been against PLD tanking

[FailureMidgard]

BLU (inb4 lawl)
Self cures, real/more enmity spells (Blank Gaze is basically old dispel), Cocoon for comparable defense, self Refresh/Haste, Magic Def spell, etc
BLU tanking was actually viable when RDM could still tank, but it lacked Fast Cast III
also, afaik Thorny has always been against PLD tanking

Who cares what he was against when Rdm/nin was a viable tank? He's not backpedaling or anything when the entire game did a 180. Also, self refresh and haste aren't even a benefit in my mind. We've used BLU tanks on ultima and shit before, just for fun and such, I realize it's capable, but I don't see it anything special over paladin (esp with Aegis). And I think paladin has significantly more going for it defensively than blu.

[fredjanx]

Who cares what he was against when Rdm/nin was a viable tank? He's not backpedaling or anything when the entire game did a 180. Also, self refresh and haste aren't even a benefit in my mind. We've used BLU tanks on ultima and shit before, just for fun and such, I realize it's capable, but I don't see it anything special over paladin (esp with Aegis). And I think paladin has significantly more going for it defensively than blu.

Looking at it this way.... that's not far from reality.
PLD has Sentinel/Invincible for "OHSHI" moments, and Divine Emblem for that enmity boost in spells, as well as cures.
BLU has cures, Fast Cast I, and a wide amount of spells that are comparable to oldRDMspells.
and yeah, I was aware that self refresh/haste aren't benefits for tanking.

[Ohaigaiz]

Isn't paladin the best tank for anything you can't engage now? ZOMG stop living in 2009, etc. ;p

Dunno who fights things you can't engage besides JoL, and even then it's still terrible because the PLD can't hold hate off MNKs and genrye.

[FailureMidgard]

Dunno who fights things you can't engage besides JoL, and even then it's still terrible because the PLD can't hold hate off MNKs and genrye.

No job in the game can hold hate off any melee worth 2 shits. There's a hate ceiling, if you weren't aware. Any and every decent melee should hit it.

Ouryu, Tiamat half the time, Lambton part of the time. I'll go ahead and add PW for the hell of it. Probably Yilbegan too?

It's also the go-to job to have as a safety net, incase shit hits the fan. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge proponent of Sam (and other DD) tanking, but paladin has a place in the game still.

[Thorny]

I like being prepared. Like I said in some other thread, even my BLU is decked.. not that I plan on using it. PLD has significantly more use now than it did before, though I don't foresee it being an active job it hardly hurts to kill chukwa between cuelebre pops

[Ohaigaiz]

paladin has a place in the game still.

It really doesn't. Unless by place in the game you mean 'highly situational and is almost never used'. Almost everything in the game can be tanked by MNK. 1) Has absurdly high HP 2) Has a great PDT set 3) Counter is better than shield block 4) Perfect counter 5) Insane damage output. You mentioned that no job can hold hate off DDs worth a shit? Well no DD can pull hate off the best DD.

Literally, PLD has been used like 4 times in the past 3 months, and was probably only 'needed' at JoL. We haven't done Ouryu in forever probably because no one gives a shit. Tiamat is boring and no one cares. JoL is boring and no one cares but we have to kill it because someone got a pop for it. Omega is tanked by DRKs presumably because meleeing it sucks, although it could be tanked by MNKs it'd just be a pain. Everything in sky is tanked by MNKs and kirin was very easily done with 3 MNKs 1 DRG 3 BRDs 1 COR 1 DNC(no soul voice). Sea is mainly duo'd except JoL, PLD. Abyssea is tanked by MNKs and if it can't be tanked by MNKs it's something that can be solo'd/duo'd/trio'd and wouldn't be worth a group's time. Kulkukan or whatever was tanked by a bunch of blm/nins and was lol as fuck(yes we won). Dynamis is tanked by MNKs. Limbus is splits and is solo'd/duo'd/trio'd.

I don't even know where I was going with this. I should probably just ctrl backspace but for whatever reason I felt like typing all this out. Probably because my MNK is 54 and I want to play it but 35 pants won't drop and so I haven't been playing FFXI much.

/wrist

[FailureMidgard]

It really doesn't. Unless by place in the game you mean 'highly situational and is almost never used'. Almost everything in the game can be tanked by MNK. 1) Has absurdly high HP 2) Has a great PDT set 3) Counter is better than shield block 4) Perfect counter 5) Insane damage output. You mentioned that no job can hold hate off DDs worth a shit? Well no DD can pull hate off the best DD.

I'm embarrassed for you. Have you really never been in a situation with 2 DDs capped on hate? Really? Wow. On any fight that takes over a minute, DDs should be capping hate, and if you put some in front and some behind, you'll notice the mob constantly turning because every swing/shadow loss changes who's at the top. I'm not sure if you're trolling or really have this little grasp of game mechanics. Guess you're the filler in Thorny's shell?

Literally, PLD has been used like 4 times in the past 3 months, and was probably only 'needed' at JoL. We haven't done Ouryu in forever probably because no one gives a shit. Tiamat is boring and no one cares. JoL is boring and no one cares but we have to kill it because someone got a pop for it. Omega is tanked by DRKs presumably because meleeing it sucks, although it could be tanked by MNKs it'd just be a pain. Everything in sky is tanked by MNKs and kirin was very easily done with 3 MNKs 1 DRG 3 BRDs 1 COR 1 DNC(no soul voice). Sea is mainly duo'd except JoL, PLD. Abyssea is tanked by MNKs and if it can't be tanked by MNKs it's something that can be solo'd/duo'd/trio'd and wouldn't be worth a group's time. Kulkukan or whatever was tanked by a bunch of blm/nins and was lol as fuck(yes we won). Dynamis is tanked by MNKs. Limbus is splits and is solo'd/duo'd/trio'd.

Awesome, the "boring and noone cares" argument. I'm not sure how you care about Omega but not things I list paladin for. Do you just choose to not care anywhere paladin has an advantage? 'cause that's what your post seems like.

Also, maybe you weren't one of the first ones popping higher tier Abyssea NMs, but I was, and going into a fight knowing absolutely nothing about the fight, I'm damn glad we had an Aegis paladin there. After knowing what abilities they have and how to counter them, ya, we can do it without, but shit you're dumb. Also, grats on listing all the places paladin isn't so hot...I'm so proud of you. Again, I think I've been one of the larger proponents of DD tanks on BG, not quite so much as Tsuko perhaps, but I've definitely been up there, I just take a slightly more realistic outlook on it IMO, and realize shit does go wrong. Then again, I also don't use "Tiamat is boring" as an excuse when I'm wrong. Oh noes, it takes a whole ~60 seconds to Nexus there and 15min to kill it and get gaiters like 60% of the time (I think we're up to 4/5 since Resonance formed).

Basically, stop band-wagoning on what others say when you clearly don't have a grasp as to why anyone even says it. I'm so proud that you are at least able to look and see what jobs Thorny tells people to go on. Sadly though, you sound as ignorant as you were when you used to get on Volume's vent.

[Ohaigaiz]

Awesome, the "boring and noone cares" argument. I'm not sure how you care about Omega but not things I list paladin for. Do you just choose to not care anywhere paladin has an advantage? 'cause that's what your post seems like.

Also, maybe you weren't one of the first ones popping higher tier Abyssea NMs, but I was, and going into a fight knowing absolutely nothing about the fight, I'm damn glad we had an Aegis paladin there. After knowing what abilities they have and how to counter them, ya, we can do it without, but shit you're dumb. Also, grats on listing all the places paladin isn't so hot...I'm so proud of you. Again, I think I've been one of the larger proponents of DD tanks on BG, not quite so much as Tsuko perhaps, but I've definitely been up there, I just take a slightly more realistic outlook on it IMO, and realize shit does go wrong. Then again, I also don't use "Tiamat is boring" as an excuse when I'm wrong. Oh noes, it takes a whole ~60 seconds to Nexus there and 15min to kill it and get gaiters like 60% of the time (I think we're up to 4/5 since Resonance formed).

Basically, stop band-wagoning on what others say when you clearly don't have a grasp as to why anyone even says it. I'm so proud that you are at least able to look and see what jobs Thorny tells people to go on. Sadly though, you sound as ignorant as you were when you used to get on Volume's vent.

I listed the events I do, lol. The only things I left out were HNMs. I guess you could tank Odin with paladin?

The reason I said Tiamat is boring is because it is. Who wants to do Tiamat? Grats on your 8 mil that gets split between 40 people. I'm happy for you.

Ouryu is boring as well but is probably not even profitable anymore so that's probably why we stopped doing it. Cool, you had a paladin for a higher tier abyssea NM. If it couldn't have been tanked by MNK it probably would've been tanked by something other than PLD.

You're coming off like PLD is an amazing tank, which I don't think you believe. My argument is that PLD is a bad tank in almost every situation, or at least worse than the rest. Your argument seems to have swayed from 'it's best on most things' to 'omfg u r so dum pld is da best on errting'. At least, that's how it seems. I mean, if you'd like to enlighten me on how I was wrong, by all means.

I argued paladin isn't a good job and is really only utilized in situations where you can't melee, and even then is fairly sub par. That's it.

[Thorny]

We haven't done ouryu recently due to lack of evokers, both coming in from linkshell and outside, not that it matters much. It's still pretty good gil if we had enough to be worth going out.

PLD is a good fallback, since PLD DRK and BLU are the only jobs that can tank decently without engaging nowadays. It's rarely part of a finished strategy, but when next abyssea comes out you're going to be seeing me on it a lot more first few weeks.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I argued paladin isn't a good job and is really only utilized in situations where you can't melee, and even then is fairly sub par. That's it.

This is where you lose me. This was essentially a matter of fact when RDM could hold hate without being stupidly inefficient, but there's really only two first string, unengaged tanking jobs now- BLU and PLD. BLU has an enmity advantage, sure, but BLU survivability has never been on par with PLD. RDM was only superior in that regard because of the stupid amounts of Fast Cast, a very large Stoneskin, capped Phalanx, MDB traits, and probably something else I'm forgetting. BLU has none of these things(inb4 Diamondhide).

Not saying any of this makes BLU a bad tank, but saying PLD is still trash is pretty outlandish.

Also, I have an evoker.

[Ohaigaiz]

This is where you lose me.

It's sub par because it's taking too long to kill.

[Thorny]

BLU has none of these things(inb4 Diamondhide).

Cocoon, Fast Cast trait, all the same PDT and MDT gear as RDM, self refresh. I'd favor it over PLD for a finished strategy reliant on a disengaged tank. However, DRK can still outclass both on anything stunnable/abs-tpable. PLD is good in that it can function as both a ghetto-dd tank and a disengaged tank, has multiclick refresh naturally, has both cures and utsusemi, and atonement has a few niche uses where melee damage sucks but you can still hit enough to get tp(soulflayer VNM comes to mind, but i'm sure there are more).

Also, I have an evoker.

I'll talk to you about times, I know magi has one but still hate to do ouryu for 2 orbs and nobody seems to care much about ENMs these days.

[Cairthenn]

I guess you could tank Odin with paladin?

SAM can do fine.

[FailureMidgard]

I listed the events I do, lol. The only things I left out were HNMs. I guess you could tank Odin with paladin?

It's nice to have one for Zantetsuken, haha.

The reason I said Tiamat is boring is because it is. Who wants to do Tiamat? Grats on your 8 mil that gets split between 40 people. I'm happy for you.

40 people wat? Didn't realize you had to rotate allies with claim on Tiamat, my bad I guess you're clearly the expert. Let's go ahead and use 40 people though....

8mil/40 = 200k per person for literally 15-20min of time. Shit, that sounds pretty fucking good to me. 60% droprate and it's still 120k for 20min of time, or 360k/hr. You make better than that? Now let's drop that to 15 people, 533k/20min of time. 1.6mil/hr...hmm...

Ouryu is boring as well but is probably not even profitable anymore so that's probably why we stopped doing it. Cool, you had a paladin for a higher tier abyssea NM. If it couldn't have been tanked by MNK it probably would've been tanked by something other than PLD.

Ouryu is boring, I agree. It was always boring. And Manteels are still 4mil on Phoenix, so no idea why it's no longer profitable. And again, you're missing the whole safety net thing. You know how like, you've never done anything except listen to other people's ideas and repeated them? Well, we went in with more people than we needed, and more safety than we needed, so when some random WTF bullshit happened and Briareus suddenly used an entirely different WS 3 times for 1500 a piece during his 2hr, guess what, our melee died and our shiny little paladin ended up surviving. Neat, huh? Also, let's pretend for a sec Cuelebre was a popped NM, and nobody had ever fought it. Would you be happy if you walked in with mnk tanks and support for them? Would you have perfectly guessed the joke of an NM that it was, and gone in with just 2 rdm/schs? No, you're gonna have a good setup, ready to take whatever it throws at you. Sorry, the mnk/nins would have sucked quite hard.

You're coming off like PLD is an amazing tank, which I don't think you believe. My argument is that PLD is a bad tank in almost every situation, or at least worse than the rest. Your argument seems to have swayed from 'it's best on most things' to 'omfg u r so dum pld is da best on errting'. At least, that's how it seems. I mean, if you'd like to enlighten me on how I was wrong, by all means.

No, I pointed out like 5 fucking times a paladin is worth bringing. Then you used your brilliant skills of deduction to point out that it isn't good in the rest of the game. No fucking shit moron. I said it has a place, and it does. Here you go, I'll repeat it for you, maybe you can hold back your ADD long enough to read the full line this time:

Ouryu, Tiamat half the time, Lambton part of the time. I'll go ahead and add PW for the hell of it. Probably Yilbegan too?

I then added it's a very nice thing to have when you have no goddamn clue what a mob is going to do, which is true . . .

I argued paladin isn't a good job and is really only utilized in situations where you can't melee, and even then is fairly sub par. That's it.

I agree it isn't a good job, but it has it's place. I'd say the same about Dark Knight, personally (even with KC zerg existing, it has it's very limited place). But they both still have a place.

Basically, your arguments against me are 1 of the following:
1. But look at all these times paladin is utterly useless! That must mean it's useless on XYZ too.
2. Oh, that fight is boring because paladin is used.
3. Oh, that fight only makes you 1mil/hr, that's shitty gil.
4. THE 2ND BEST DD IN THE WORLD CANT PULL HATE OFF THE BEST DD IN THE WORLD. I HAVE INFINITE HATE, MUHAHAHA.
5. Once Thorny tells me exactly how to fight XYZ nm, I can do it! Teehee, ignore the fact that other people figured out how the fight works first.


In conclusion, Paladin is not good on shit you can engage/etc, we all agree. It is a very good job to bring to unknown shit, it's a good job to super-tank random shit (WoE?), and it's a good job to tank something you can't engage (esp with an Aegis) or that hundred fists. Calling paladin a worthless job now is synonymous with calling rdm/nin a useless tank job 4 months ago, for the record.

[Thorny]

SAM can do fine.

was the point of the 'guess you could'

@Tiamat: 60% of 8m is 4.8m average payout. Now, if it's unclaimed and you have a 20 minute kill + 15 travel with 12 people(pretty reasonable), that's 690k/h. Now, let's say whoever has their mule there botting an announcement when it pops were to put it at sea serpent grotto bot farming etudes instead of tiamat. Given it's an average of 24h pop, that's 1560k potential loss. That cuts your average payout to 3.24m if you consider that person's opportunity cost. Now, let's say half the time they don't bother moving it between tiamat windows because of hassle. That's another 1.5 days of potential loss.. or 2340k. This cuts your average payout to 900k for a tiamat. 900k / 12 = 75k / 35 = 2.1k/min or 120k/h. I'm sure someone will say this is ridiculous, but there are countless camps capable of producing upwards of 60k/h for an afkbot.. why use tiamat and share it? Add on that most servers still have competition there.. it's really not as awesome as you seem to think.