Oh religion, you so crazy

[Sylvrdragon]

Sath, you may have heard of this guy already, but in the event that you haven't, I feel that I must introduce you:

http://yudkowsky.net/

The man is a rationality guru IMO. He has hundreds of posts spread across http://www.overcomingbias.com/ and http://lesswrong.com/. If anyone could tell you how to teach rationality, it would be this man.

[BerenTebogo]

Thanks for seeing my point. I hope I don't offend or misinterpret something you say. It is easy to do over text, especially as I am prone to sarcasm, though I am trying to avoid it.

Now, for the concept of crazy. Which particular definition are you applying? I would assume, and correct me if I am wrong, that it is the denial of scientific fact for a literal interpretation of a religious text. Yes, directly denying what is logically presented in front of one is delusion. And you are correct, some religious people are completely insane, (see anyone who has a television show and says jesus other than when they stub their toe on the interview desk.) This is not a rule. It is however what we get to see each day in the newspaper or an internet clip. Which, due to the nature of our democracy, we cannot control.

Accepting these points, as they exist in our society means they could and eventually will be tackled in a more public forum....Texas skoole happy hour. That however is a whole nother issue, even if one side doesnt perceive it as such.


Also, I am Mostly hammered

You're correct. Part of the biggest problem is tied to the side conversation I'm having with Kuya so I think I'll start by consolidating both of my responses to a single one.

The perpetuation of religious views, specifically omnipotence, eternal happiness or damnation, resurrection, etc, are allowed to flourish primarily due to the increasing schism between what we know and understand about life and the universe around us against what religious leaders and religious authority figures tell us to believe.

In the past century we, as a people, not any one person or one group, have solved problems and questions that have faced humanity since before Hammurabi started etching out his code. The problem is that we've also increased our knowledge of the universe by some massive order of magnitude in 100 years over the combined knowledge of the previous 6,000 years.

Really, we've done more in a century than we had accomplished since we developed agriculture. What this means is that these beliefs that have existed for thousands of years about magic, mysticism, omnipotence, eternity, on and on, are being demolished by ideas that are completely foreign to the vast majority.

Does this make believers any less crazy? I don't think so. In a world of Ipads and internets and Xbox cord hangings I think it takes a certain determined resistance to truth to be able to say that the same beliefs that started in the days of goat trading apply just as much to us today. Especially when culture as a whole is existing in direct violation of the will of God (judeo-christian) at almost every possible turn.

So what does this mean? It means that people are pushing harder and harder to influence the next generation, to indoctrinate them as early as possible so that their ideals in a specific world view can not only survive against the oppressive front of science and reason, but indeed pick up a figurative gun and wage war on the invaders. Dawkins cites this indoctrination at ages too young to voice opposition as child abuse. I don't completely agree with the terminology, but I do agree that there is a willful lack of concern for the best interests of the child in favor of imprinting ideology.

This brings me back to the point with Kuya, after 15 or so years of this constant reinforcement of a single idea with no dissent from the only culture the child knows (school, friends, afterschool activities, pop culture) it becomes a losing battle for educators to sit in front of a classroom and teach evolution. After all, who is this teacher to the children? Just another name that will be gone in a year. Who are they to question the ideas laid firmly by the parents and the pastor? It's a battle that is impossible to win and it directly impacts (negatively) the life of that now young adult as a whole.

Children, without our help, are naturally prone to scientific and critical thinking. They explore every area of the world around them. They investigate every new object or person. When they are given a new toy, or pick up an object for the first time, they mash it around and play with it. At the heart of this, what they're really doing is experimenting with structural integrity, or with sounds, or with tactile responses. The property of this toy as it interacts with the floor is brand new to the child, they are learning even without knowing it. As children grow this way of free-thinking reaches a turning point of sorts. As they enter kindergarten and first grade the way of thought is either encouraged or snuffed out. Once snuffed, it is incredibly hard to recover.

I attended a Montessori school for my kindergarten and early elementary years. For many years after I looked upon my early education with anger as the school I attended was some 45 minutes from where I lived, meaning I wasn't able to really make any friends that I could interact with on a daily basis. As I grew older though I realized that despite my temporary anger at a unique situation, the education I was provided with offered benefited me in a greater way than any other person I would meet for years and years. The principle of the Montessori education system as it turns out, is one of free and critical thinking where children are allowed to learn in a more hands-on and experimentation way than of traditional schools. Memorization and recitation take a back seat to the hands-on introduction of topics and free discussion between teachers and students where the asking of questions at any time is encouraged and not considered to be an aggravation. Clearly, I was a bit lucky in this aspect.

Now that I'm an adult and have the mental faculties to look at the world around me and ascertain, based on my own criteria, what is fact versus fiction, my somewhat ingrained understanding of math and science, and my desire to question everything around me, I cannot be thankful enough for the education I was provided at an early age.

I think, for the most part, the philosophy behind the Montessori school gets it right. I think that it's terrible that the choice for parents is between providing opportunities for their children at the cost of thousands of dollars a year and sending them to public education where their individuality will be crushed (generalization, I'm well aware many public school teachers are EXCELLENT). Obviously, the public fund for education cannot handle a complete shift in the style of education, it can't handle it. However we can change the way our education system runs from within. Change what is taught when, and how.

Cursive writing, for example, serves what purpose? Mathematics and science functions almost primarily based on the Greek alphabet, yet children never experience it until they walk into Physics or Calculus and see these foreign symbols. Why not teach the Greek alphabet instead of cursive writing? Who loses out on that exchange? Nobody I can think of. General sciences are what we learn pretty much from elementary up until high school. Why spend time having tests based on matching the word Zebra to a picture of it, or memorizing words like "ecosystem" or "phylum" when we can pose a testable hypothesis to students: "A pencil weighs significantly less than a pen. If a pen and pencil are dropped from equal height the pen will hit the ground first. Test this and record results." Or something similar, and then, when students have no fucking idea why they fall at the same speed, BAM! hit them with gravity as a universal constant instead of introducing gravity as some definition on their homework.

I'm getting on in length here, so I think you can see the points I'm trying to get at. I'll stop it here so you can counter / rebut if needed.

As promised: Some youtube education.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<obje...mbed></object>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<obje...mbed></object>

[BerenTebogo]

Also, before you even post:

Max, stay out of this discussion. You alienate everyone from the side of rationality with your inane rantings and wikibusiness. Please, you will do the cause a just service by just shutting the fuck up.

[Max™]

I was actually going to say "cut off the head and it will run around randomly due to misfiring nerve impulses before the body bleeds out", but now I'm going to post a bunch of random inane shit instead! Ha ha, fuck you too!


Not really though, my views on all that religion whackiness are plenty well known, I'm just surprised I haven't picked up as many people pointing out how fucked up it is that it was Eisenhower who did this shit.

edited because I left out "how fucked up it is" part*

[Kryssan]

Also, before you even post:

Max, stay out of this discussion. You alienate everyone from the side of rationality with your inane rantings and wikibusiness. Please, you will do the cause a just service by just shutting the fuck up.

I was actually going to say "cut off the head and it will run around randomly due to misfiring nerve impulses before the body bleeds out", but now I'm going to post a bunch of random inane shit instead! Ha ha, fuck you too!


Not really though, my views on all that religion whackiness are plenty well known, I'm just surprised I haven't picked up as many people pointing out how fucked up it is that it was Eisenhower who did this shit.

edited because I left out "how fucked up it is" part*

It's like.... you knew.


Only 10 minutes? Would've been so much better had it been less than a minute apart.

[BerenTebogo]

Also, on the topic of science education:

The world needs more of this. In extremely large doses.
http://www.joannelovesscience.com/gummi_science.html

What concepts are presented in "Digesting a Gummy Bear in Trypsin"?

Enyzme types vary along the digestive tract.

The organ from which Trypsin originates is the pancreas.

The difference between a protein, a peptide and an amino acid.

Trypsin is specific to cut apart proteins after the amino acids lysine and arginine (as long as they are not followed by a proline)

Enzymes work best at physiological temperature (37oC)

Warm liquids dissolve a gummy bear faster than cold liquids.

Definition of a hypothesis.

The varying pHs across the digestive tract.

The harsh environment of the digestive system causes cells to renew themselves every few days

Controlling for variables is important in experimentation.

The uses of trypsin in research labs: protein sequencing and removing adherent tissue culture cells from a dish.

One use of trypsin in medicine: to dissolve blood clots

Trypsin is used to pre-digest pre-packaged food.

An example of a disease that involves trypsin.

She runs a bunch of web-based outreach programs to help teach kids science in a way that is fun to learn.

Fuck yeah science advocates.

[Vandole]

Believe it or not, it's not all that bad here if you live in a major city. I'd take NC over most of the rest of the southeast honestly. Alabama, Mississippi, hell even South Carolina are all much worse.

That being said I still want to move to either Vancouver or London.

i live in mississippi. it's terrible. i'm considered worse than gay people because i'm an athiest and will openly admit it.

some friends and i were discussing some shitty things bout my state the other day on a facebook post and some random hick said "if you don't like it we can meet behind mcdonalds and i'll teach you what we do when your kind comes around"


in during darwin

[Max™]

They have you clean the fryer greasetraps?

Pretty shitty job, no doubt.


Incidentally, it's like he (Sath) knew something which was not based on fact, kinda like a religion!

[Sylvrdragon]

My mother was catholic. She tried (halfheartedly) to raise me and my brother catholic as well. Sure enough, during my childhood, I didn't question it. Though I went to public schools in the North (Ohio), I did attend a weekend religious course for a while. During my teenage years, I read a LOT of fiction. Eventually, I went over from primarily Fantasy to primarily Science Fiction (Namely Orson Scott Card books, the first being Ender's Game). Now, it probably would have happened eventually anyway, but in reading these types of books, I think I was able to get a good head start into rationality and critical thinking. From there, it didn't take me very long at all to realize that I didn't actually believe the bible stories of my childhood any deeper than I did the Fantasy and Sci-Fi novels of my teen years.

What amazes me though is what I realized many years after accepting my atheism, and that is the realization that I NEVER TRULY BELIEVED ANY OF IT. Sure, I memorized a few of the main prayers and went through the motions, but I realized that I never actually had faith in the religion, but rather I had faith in my MOTHER. Lets face it, children believe what their parents tell them about the world. It takes an extremely isolated childhood to bypass this stage in development. This doesn't just apply to religion either. Children can be raised to believe just about anything, and if it isn't caught quickly, it is almost certain to be deeply ingrained into their foundation. Then these people raise THEIR kids and never even think that they're only religious because they were brainwashed into it.

I think it would only take one generation of children separated from religious influence to rid the entire world of religion probably forever (given our current knowledge of the world), whereas, a generation of purely religious indoctrination would still yield critical thinkers and naturally occurring atheists.

[Hyan]

You guys never cease to amaze me.

I recently watched a documentary (during the religion course at my school, fuck yeah) about Christianity in America.. Children are taught that Dinosaurs are fake and masses gather in huge arenas like they were in a concert and sing Christian songs holding each others' hands. It felt more like a show than a religious meeting.

Not to mention they showed a Jesus/Bible themepark too.. what the fuck?

It's simply unbelievable.

[Mizango]

Some circles even believe that Dinosaurs were used in antiquity, much like oxen are used in modern times. Nothing says youre a man like harnessing a plow to a fucking Triceratops to sow your fields.

It made me look at the Flintstones in a whole new light!

One of my favorite Carl Sagan quotes of all time:

You see, the religious people -- most of them -- really think this planet is an experiment. That's what their beliefs come down to. Some god or other is always fixing and poking, messing around with tradesmen's wives, giving tablets on mountains, commanding you to mutilate your children, telling people what words they can say and what words they can't say, making people feel guilty about enjoying themselves, and like that. Why can't the gods leave well enough alone? All this intervention speaks of incompetence. If God didn't want Lot's wife to look back, why didn't he make her obedient, so she'd do what her husband told her? Or if he hadn't made Lot such a shithead, maybe she would've listened to him more.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, why didn't he start the universe out in the first place so it would come out the way he wants? Why's he constantly repairing and complaining? No, there's one thing the Bible makes clear: The biblical God is a sloppy manufacturer. He's not good at design, he's not good at execution. He'd be out of business if there was any competition.

And this one speaking to a critic, is applicable in many cases...

Anything you don't understand, Mr. Rankin, you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it.

[Raiko]

I dunno if this has ever been posted on here guys, but talk about feeling rage behind your keyboard - jesus christ!

I'll just leave this here... (friend linked me)
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showt...t=13274&page=1

Apologies if this insanity has been posted already

[Blarg]

I dunno if this has ever been posted on here guys, but talk about feeling rage behind your keyboard - jesus christ!

I'll just leave this here... (friend linked me)
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showt...t=13274&page=1

Apologies if this insanity has been posted already

you need to fix your parody antenna because just reading that makes it pretty obvious

[Hyan]

I'm not really sure about this though

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45427

Let's see science tackle these arguments!

[Raiko]

Oh I feel so silly, Ive been reading that for about a month totally at a loss XD

[barber2006]

You guys never cease to amaze me.

I recently watched a documentary (during the religion course at my school, fuck yeah) about Christianity in America.. Children are taught that Dinosaurs are fake and masses gather in huge arenas like they were in a concert and sing Christian songs holding each others' hands. It felt more like a show than a religious meeting.

Not to mention they showed a Jesus/Bible themepark too.. what the fuck?

It's simply unbelievable.

I live in the deep south. I've often complained that we are right under the buckle of the Bible belt. Prayers are still a part of football games and graduations, etc. But what you are describing here is representative of such a small and insignificant percentage of religion as I've seen it here (and surely it can't be more exacerbated outside of Louisiana).


If religious belief dropped by 90% tomorrow you would still have the 10% of the landovers, etc making just as much noise and spraypainting just as many billboards. Why not just stop pretending that these threads are for information and come to grips with the fact that they are a support group for the atheistic minority who have to spend their days at work, school, hobbies with religious people. I'm all for 'indivisible' instead of 'under God, indivisible' but quotes like this are just screaming "Affirm me! I spend all of my days around people I don't see eye to eye with and need someone to pat me on the back for my blanket statement of a group based on their lowest common denominator."



As for the church abuse stuff.....surprise surprise. 2% of priests are pedos. 2% of the general population are pedos. Application: protect your kids the best you can. Should you be wary of a priest? Yup. And be wary of everyone else too. Read these books by a leading profiler of the FBI:

http://www.amazon.com/Protecting-Gif...7907321&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Other-Survival...7907321&sr=8-2


Doesn't matter if its a priest, a little league coach, a tutor, or a director of the natural history museum. 2% of the male population will hurt your kids if given access.


edit: leaving it but I was thinking landover were the people that protested at funerals to get assaulted and win lawsuits. Can't remember what they are called.

[Bladen]

I'm not really sure about this though

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45427

Are you fucking kidding me? I'm at a loss for words at this one.

Guess none of them have ever gone to the ocean and watched a ship disappear over the horizon.

[Pirian]

Are you fucking kidding me? I'm at a loss for words at this one.

Guess none of them have ever gone to the ocean and watched a ship disappear over the horizon.

GJ you just got trolled. I'm 99% certain that is a parody website.

[Uzor]

Wow at those comments. "America is a nation bases around Christianity"?

USA were one of the first Western countries NOT built around Christianity. It was one of the first nations to state that there's no official religion and people were free to believe in what they want. How on earth they manage to turn that in to a "Christian-based country" is beyond me, as the constitution even states its not a Christian country.

[Bladen]

GJ you just got trolled. I'm 99% certain that is a parody website.

Yeah, I figured that out shortly after posting but I'm sure some people actually have those ideals.