Proposing Something to SE, Need Help

[cdgreg]

Urat strikes again.

^ sigh

[Antithesis]

My GF does 4k to mobs you merit on at 75 as Dnc80/Sam40. Get 200 TP and 5 steps, split your TP with sam JA. Evisceration > DE > Distortion > Use Reverse Florisih > Evisceration > Darkness. It is complete rape to mobs. Not to mention dnc can blood tank really well with Fan Dance. On top of all that they can heal really well.

Nobody fucking cares.

[BRP]

OP needs help

[urat]

The issue with dancer is we're not a potent support class either.

We've had our abilities spread all over the place and thinned out so we're not the best at anything, and everything we have some other job has like twice as much as.

Lately everything SE has been giving us is damage based, skillchain bonus, dual wield, conserve tp, etc.

But the main issue is these are half assed attempts to fix us. Much like beasts jugs yeah its nice but it doesn't change the fact that everyone but us is going to get an invite ahead of us.

At most I can give my party, when Im going balls to the wall everything I can, 10% haste, 20 acc, and 20ish attack.

Red mage can do all of that as well, but 15% haste, gravity, dia, and then toss in stuff like protect shell, and whatever else you want.

If SE really wants to make us a DD, which is clearly what they showed this update, let me once again point at how nearly all job traits given to us were DD traits not support traits, the only support move we got is presto, then they should stop half assing it with little tweaks here and there that don't fix our prime issue.

Either give us enough supporting ability in the party to match that of other support jobs, or give us a way to damage our opponents other than weaponskills, or better yet do both, give us a way to enhance the damage of other members directly like wild flourish.

I dunno, we hit enemy with move next weaponskill done on it within one minute gets a huge damage bonus.

Personally I like the idea of being a DD through support even more. Instead of doing direct damage I dramatically enhance the attack of my partners, but not as a perma buff butt through moves like wild flourish.

That would fix the job in my eyes IF it was enough damage to make people finally go "wow, I think Im going to invite this dancer to my party despite all the other people seeking"

Its not that I wan't dancer to be a DD, but once again, please read carefully, bolding for importance SE is trying to make us a DD and failing at it, therefor Im stating either do it right or fix the issue of our lower end buffing

[Thorny]

The issue with dancer is we're not a potent support class either.

Out. 8 second recast on waltz3 for 400 hp, results in 3000 hp cured per minute. That's the equivalent of 660 mp spent every minute by a RDM, or about 540 by a WHM. Shit is not fucking happening, with gjallarballads and 1200 convert set(full meritted) and a perfect evokers roll(with smn in pt for the hell of it) and triple refresh(capelycape) as well as refresh spell and sanction refresh you get back 502 mp per minute. A RDM in completely perfect conditions has less healing/second than a DNC does, before considering that they need to spend MP on haste as well. A properly geared DNC can realistically waltz3 every 8 seconds while keeping haste samba up and applying steps.. so you have 10% haste on all DD, a medium -def or -eva on monster, and more healing power than a perfectly equipped RDM with gjallarbrd and cor support. DNC is fucking godly as is, shut the fuck up and stop trying to DD.

[Dooom]

SE is trying to make us a DD and failing at it, therefor Im stating either do it right or fix the issue of our lower end buffing[

Where the hell did you get this idea from?

[Mytiwar]

This isn't even a discussion, it's going nowhere fast.

[Heie]

Nobody fucking cares.

Apprently the OP does and everyone else crying about DNC. If the job isn't doing what you want. Play it better or play another job.

[isladar]

Anyone still yelling at him or we done here?

[Antithesis]

This is no less entertaining then when the whiny ass Red Mages were complaining that they were stuck in the back-lines and wanted to move to the front-lines.

[isladar]

Except when they learned that they could, in fact, cancel it.

[urat]

Out. 8 second recast on waltz3 for 400 hp, results in 3000 hp cured per minute. That's the equivalent of 660 mp spent every minute by a RDM, or about 540 by a WHM. Shit is not fucking happening, with gjallarballads and 1200 convert set(full meritted) and a perfect evokers roll(with smn in pt for the hell of it) and triple refresh(capelycape) as well as refresh spell and sanction refresh you get back 502 mp per minute. A RDM in completely perfect conditions has less healing/second than a DNC does, before considering that they need to spend MP on haste as well. A properly geared DNC can realistically waltz3 every 8 seconds while keeping haste samba up and applying steps.. so you have 10% haste on all DD, a medium -def or -eva on monster, and more healing power than a perfectly equipped RDM with gjallarbrd and cor support. DNC is fucking godly as is, shut the fuck up and stop trying to DD.

60 seconds / 8 = 7.5 waltz 3s a minute, *50 tp = 375 tp required per minute to pull off consistant CW3s

Realistically keep haste samba up, 35 tp so we're at 400 tp in one minute, while keeping haste samba going?

Yeah I can do that. When I'm fucking 2 houring.

No you retards we can NOT pop a CW3 every chance we get. Tops at any moment I can last about 5~6 CW3s before I run low on tp.

Realistically? 4-5 a minute tops. thats about 2K hp a minute, barely enough to keep the party alive.

Not to mention when a red mage is healing, you aren't taking into account, bolding for importance again

All of red mages cures don't work on the same fucking timer

I can only do one cure at a time, and if its CW3 I have to wait, 8 seconds to do it again, assuming top of the line gear.

[Massimo]

Just shut the fuck up already.

You're a gimp who can only do gimp things, that however does not mean that your job is the problem.

[urat]

Where the hell did you get this idea from?

This update:

Conserve tp (Weaponskilling)

Climactic flourish (Consume all our finishes for crits, sounds damage based to me)

Skillchain bonus (weaponskilling again)

Dual wield

The only supporting move we got this update was presto, which buffs our next step. Other than that, we got 1 waltz and a pile of offensive based traits that still don't actually make us a damage dealer. Sure they're nice but they aren't anything that will get me decent party invites.

[Xno Kappa]

Some of those updates are directed to help the job TP faster, not necessarily DD.

[Dooom]

Haste Sambas last 2 minutes, assuming AF head. If you're not using AF head, ->

A reasonable, totally NQ dnc is going to be at 21% haste in gear (walmart, raparee, dusk, swift, those new pink legs, dusk), add on double march, haste spell, 10% samba, multi-hit weapons, no foot rise, meditate, conserve TP, you're going to be pooping TP so fast it's crazy.

edit - a few asides does not mean dnc is being "pushed as a DD". The above poster is right, the things worth fussing over help us do support, not DD. Any DDing is a result of playing as support.

[urat]

Just shut the fuck up already.

You're a gimp who can only do gimp things, that however does not mean that your job is the problem.

Saber dance, which takes away healing powers anyways but I'll give you the benefit of the 50% DA, meditate, /sam store tp and dual wield with triple attacking dagger offhand still barely puts me into the high 300s of tp/m. And that's assuming 100% accuracy. And once again, saber dance.

Without saber dancer I would love to see a set up that can pull off 400 tp/m without blowing millions of gil on perfect cutting edge gear. It's possible maybe, but you're going to need the mythic I think.

The only way I can see this being remotely possible is now with presto, which saves 10 tpm, and 5/5 reverse flourish merits.

This will put reverse flourish +tp/m at about 80, maybe 90 if your fast.

20 from meditate, and you only need to pull of 290 tp/m in melee to manage it. You can try I guess.

[Thorny]

Athame/Joyeuse - del:348, 4.9 tp/hit
.05 x 2 = .1
.95 x .4 x 2 = .76
.95 x .6 x 1 = .57
1.43 attacks from athame

.05 x2 = .1
.95 x .5 . x 2 = .95
.95 x .5 x 1 = .475
1.525 attacks from joyeuse
2.955 attacks total

23 stp(15 /sam, 5 rajas, 1 brutal, 2 wtath) = 4.9 x 1.21 = 5.9 tp/hit
5.9 x 2.955 = 17.4 tp/attack round

reverse flourish(2x/min, normally 2 steps except 5 steps every 6th from NFR) = 85 tp/min average

meditate = 60/3 min, 20/min average

105 tp/min from med and RF
17.4/attack round/348 delay with 70% haste(marches, haste, haste samba, gear haste)

348 x .3 = 104.4 = 1.74 sec/attack round

17.4/1.74 = 10 tp/sec

600 tp/min from meleeing, 105 from JAs = 705 tp/minute

haste samba every 2 min is 17.5 tp/min
step x4 every minute is 40 tp/min
curing waltz 3 7.5x a min is 375 tp/min

Total TP gain:705
Total TP spent: 432.5

Suck less, that's before even considering that parazonium is an option. You can cut it down to 20% gear haste and still (barely) make the cut, but I see no reason to need to considering I can get 27%..

As far as RDM's timers, cure 4 and cure 3 both have 2.5 second casting times with spell delay between spamming. You can realistically cure 4 and cure 3 in the time a DNC can waltz3 once, yes, but you'll run out of mp obscenely fast. In all idealistic conditions, alternating cure4/cure3 with no haste, debuff, or dia responsibilities barely lasts 4.5 minutes. DNC can maintain their 3000 hp/minute forever whilst keeping haste up, contributing minor minor damage through tp, occasionally sekkanokiing, and keeping steps up. Ideally your RDM does a haste cycle then focuses on sleeps while your DNC controls healing. Perfect Dyna/Ein party is DNC BRD COR DD DD DD with the RDM in another party hasting them.

[Heie]

Saber dance, which takes away healing powers anyways but I'll give you the benefit of the 50% DA, meditate, /sam store tp and dual wield with triple attacking dagger offhand still barely puts me into the high 300s of tp/m. And that's assuming 100% accuracy. And once again, saber dance.

Without saber dancer I would love to see a set up that can pull off 400 tp/m without blowing millions of gil on perfect cutting edge gear. It's possible maybe, but you're going to need the mythic I think.

The only way I can see this being remotely possible is now with presto, which saves 10 tpm, and 5/5 reverse flourish merits.

This will put reverse flourish +tp/m at about 80, maybe 90 if your fast.

20 from meditate, and you only need to pull of 290 tp/m in melee to manage it. You can try I guess.

No Nofoot rise?

[Myrrh_Quetz]

It's Urat's adaman thread all over again.