Proposing Something to SE, Need Help

[Byrthnoth]

Well, you can waltz 10 times in a minute with properly augmented pants. Each costs 45tp with more properly augmented gear.
450 TP, assume 2 steps and a reverse flourish for 41tp, one Samba for 35tp.

444tp needed, 14 actions, 32 seconds to get the tp in.
13.8 tp per second

[urat]

Yes, in a party with a red mage hasting you + double march + capped haste samba with machine precision you can hit 600 tp/m.

But why the hell would a party leader invite a dancer if they already have red mage and bard when theres 50 sams and 100 dragoons lfp.

Once again this is the flaw, you're assuming in order to OUTDO the red mage, the red mage has to be there in the first place to support us to allow us to surpass them.

Also, you're assuming you have 100% acc while using a sword.

and a haste build, which means even less acc than normal.

Offhand parazonium I could see. But now we're back to the issue of the fact it takes tonnes of gil in nice gear to match that of a red mage that spent 150K on AH gear.

Either way, you're either relying on the jobs your trying to out class in order to make a match, or you need expensive armor, to match that of a red mage that spent 20 mins on the ah.

It's like saying dancer can be as good a DD as sam through weaponskills. Well yeah we can, I've done it myself. But the sam is a domarusam and I had to hunt down enkidus gear, get a combination of relic pieces, expensive weaponry, etc etc.

However, I will note. Dancer's true offensive capabilities really do shine when your teamed up as a pair with a DD, a samurai friend and I can pull out some amazing numbers when working together, which is part of dancer's charm. However standing alone we cannot compare at all.


Finally, on the note of some of the traits we were given were to help us gain tp faster. Yes that would be dual wield. I'm pretty sure climactic flourish, conserve tp, and skillchain bonus don't make us tp any faster without assuming we are trying to be a DD first.

[Byrthnoth]

But why the hell would a party leader invite a dancer if they already have red mage and bard when theres 50 sams and 100 dragoons lfp.

You are my hero. By the way, haste is better the more you have of it.

[urat]

You are my hero. By the way, haste is better the more you have of it.

This is true, but the average party leader doesn't even understand the concepts of haste to dps, let alone has worked out the math of 10% haste vs anothersam.

9 times out of ten they'll take more damage, thinking, "Well we got lots of support we don't need anymore"

Just because its wrong doesn't mean the average party leader will make the right decision.

Now some leaders WILL go "holy shit a dancer can give me 10% more haste hells yeah" and invite me.

Which is cool, but rare sadly.

[Thorny]

Protip: My primary concern isn't merit parties. That said, I usually have a hastebot outside party and a DNC in party when I merit.

DNC's primary use is dynamis/einherjar, and with the pool of people any decent shell has to work with, it isn't hard to have either:

RDM/BLM in any party dedicated hasting/sleeping
DNC BRD COR DDx3

or
RDM/BLM in any party dedicated hasting/sleeping
DNC BRD DDx4

Both are extremely efficient and show how useful DNC truly is when used properly.

If you weren't such a complete and total idiot, maybe you wouldn't be so offset by pickup styles because you wouldn't be doing fucking pickups any more.

[Dooom]

jesus christ.

Why the fuck are you trying to "out do" a rdm? Or anyone else at all?

and a haste build, which means even less acc than normal.

om nom nom sushi om nom nom accuracy food is so nice.

I've never read anything on BG before which makes me want to find the OP and yell at him/her to JUST FUCKING STOP, but this thread is doing it.

[Shalafi]

Can I copy the first post and replace DNC with PUP or BST or ...?

[TheMysteriousX]

Anyone still yelling at him or we done here?

Asking the wrong question, I don't think anyone will ever truly be done yelling at him.

DNC is the strongest healer in the game, has potent debuffs and can throw out some sick dancing edges, and you want to give them *more* DD capability?

[Heie]

It's like saying dancer can be as good a DD as sam through weaponskills. Well yeah we can, I've done it myself. But the sam is a domarusam and I had to hunt down enkidus gear, get a combination of relic pieces, expensive weaponry, etc etc.

However, I will note. Dancer's true offensive capabilities really do shine when your teamed up as a pair with a DD, a samurai friend and I can pull out some amazing numbers when working together, which is part of dancer's charm. However standing alone we cannot compare at all.


Finally, on the note of some of the traits we were given were to help us gain tp faster. Yes that would be dual wield. I'm pretty sure climactic flourish, conserve tp, and skillchain bonus don't make us tp any faster without assuming we are trying to be a DD first.

^

SE made this game so we would work together. Also if you are DDing and keeping up with an AH sam what is the problem. If the party needs your support are they going to get it from the sam? Is the sam going to be able to stun without using a shitty ws or once every 5 minutes? Is the sam going to be giving the mob def and eva down? You can't heal and DD at the same time. It is nice to be able to switch between the two though on the fly. Since you have that option you really think you should be the best DD or the best healer out there?

[urat]

Protip: My primary concern isn't merit parties. That said, I usually have a hastebot outside party and a DNC in party when I merit.

DNC's primary use is dynamis/einherjar, and with the pool of people any decent shell has to work with, it isn't hard to have either:

RDM/BLM in any party dedicated hasting/sleeping
DNC BRD COR DDx3

or
RDM/BLM in any party dedicated hasting/sleeping
DNC BRD DDx4

Both are extremely efficient and show how useful DNC truly is when used properly.

If you weren't such a complete and total idiot, maybe you wouldn't be so offset by pickup styles because you wouldn't be doing fucking pickups any more.

Which leads me to what I have been doing since level 30, just making my own damn parties because no one wants to invite dancer.

As for usefulness in dynamis and etc, yes I know we're good for end game support, especially now.

Actually, I am finding dancer really works well in Abyssea, many of the monsters are best handled with a multitude of stunners, and Violent Flourish appears to be particularly useful for them.

With 3 dancer's and 2 dark knights my ls can keep pretty much anything thrown at us perma stunned, and the 3 dancer's including myself can handle the healing for the whole group assuming we dont get hit by any nasty AoEs.

Anyways, this train has pretty much fallen off the tracks entirely its so off topic, and I thank you all for your input. Despite some offensive langauge I have thought about everything you've said and agree with a lot of points.

Also, I never saw the evi-DE-evi solo darkness skillchain before, I like it. Once I hit level 80 I'll mess around with its damage as it might be able to be tweaked with climactic flourish for some decent numbers.

I will agree that dancer can main heal a group on par with healers assuming perfect conditions, and yes I know we can out damage cookie cutter auction house clad damage dealers, however my prime issue at the moment with SE is still that our abilities have been so thinned out we cannot compare to any other class without topish end armor and weapons.

[Thorny]

^

SE made this game so we would work together. Also if you are DDing and keeping up with an AH sam what is the problem. If the party needs your support are they going to get it from the sam? Is the sam going to be able to stun without using a shitty ws or once every 5 minutes? Is the sam going to be giving the mob def and eva down? You can't heal and DD at the same time. It is nice to be able to switch between the two though on the fly. Since you have that option you really think you should be the best DD or the best healer out there?

Stop agreeing with Urat, it makes you look bad. I wouldn't say you're a lost cause yet, but you're getting there.

DNC as a DD is entirely mediocre and won't do 2/3 of what a COR does, much less a real DD(it seems you acknowledge this at least). DNC as a healer is the best healer out there, period. If you aren't healing, get off DNC or have some of your other healers change to offensive jobs.

@Urat: Nobody fucking cares about your stunlocks, AV, solo darkness, or any of the garbage you routinely spew. Upset you can't outdamage anything not TPing in an askar zuchetto and barone cosciales? LEVEL A FUCKING DD JOB. Upset you can't outheal a RDM? Get real gear. None of it is particularly hard to obtain, base current TP set is:

Athame/Joyeuse/Wtath
Acubens/Tiercel/Brutal/Suppa
Rapparee/Dusk(+1)/Rajas/Toreador's
Sharpeye/Velocious/UglyPinkThing/Dusk(+1)

Even if you downgrade to swift you can spam waltz3 at timer, and the only remotely difficult thing to get in there is Athame. Suck. Less.

[JigglyJam]

I'm not getting any pickup party invites on my PUP. I think I'll go make a topic about new PUP abilities on BG.

[Heie]

Stop agreeing with Urat, it makes you look bad. I wouldn't say you're a lost cause yet, but you're getting there.

DNC as a DD is entirely mediocre and won't do 2/3 of what a COR does, much less a real DD(it seems you acknowledge this at least). DNC as a healer is the best healer out there, period. If you aren't healing, get off DNC or have some of your other healers change to offensive jobs.

WTF? lol. Why would you not DD on Dnc if your pt doesn't need any support? Dnc can easily self SC 3 WS making 2 SC in a matter of 10 seconds. Show me any other job that can do that consistatly without using Meds or 2hr. Dnc can pump out some really high numbers. Only time a Dnc should be doing this though if the PT is fine.

[solanis]

WTF? lol. Why would you not DD on Dnc if your pt doesn't need any support? Dnc can easily self SC 3 WS making 2 SC in a matter of 10 seconds. Show me any other job that can do that consistatly without using Meds or 2hr. Dnc can pump out some really high numbers. Only time a Dnc should be doing this though if the PT is fine.

If the pt doesn't need any support, then the dnc shouldn't be there...

[Shenrien]

QQ fest going on in here over DNC.

[Dooom]

If your pt doesn't need support, and you are on dancer, something is wrong.

[Thorny]

WTF? lol. Why would you not DD on Dnc if your pt doesn't need any support? Dnc can easily self SC 3 WS making 2 SC in a matter of 10 seconds. Show me any other job that can do that consistatly without using Meds or 2hr. Dnc can pump out some really high numbers. Only time a Dnc should be doing this though if the PT is fine.

If your party 'doesn't need any support', you're doing something else wrong.

Are your DD fulltiming hasso or counterstance? If no, have them do so as it'll help your damage more than attempting to DD yourself.

If in an alliance situation, could your alliance change a mage to a melee if you healed more? If yes, heal more and use more melee and less mages.

If in a single party situation with a RDM, can your RDM nuke? Your 45 TP waltz3 saves the RDM 88 mp, which is equivalent to about 550 damage nuking. Can you consistantly WS for 1200? If no, you're better off healing and having the RDM nuke.

Realistically, there are very limitted situations where your healing can't be used to open up other superior possibilities elsewhere in your setup. Take advantage of it, shit ain't a vacuum. As stated before, if you aren't healing you probably shouldn't be on DNC.

[Heie]

So if you are sitting on JAs and TP and your PT doesn't need any cures. 5 DDs and DNC. You are telling me as the dnc you shouldn't thorw out some WS and SC for extra dmg?

I suppose with a RDM that has everyone hasted, refreshed and cured, the mob is diaed/slowed/para and you are sitting on MP with vert up. You shouldn't Nuke either right?

[Byrthnoth]

If the party is fine and the dnc is dding then the party should replace the dnc with a dd.

DNCs are awesome for their high healing potential and instant cures. There is nothing wrong with optimizing your DOT as long as it doesn't compromise your healing potential, but keeping up TP should be your primary concern.

If you are getting so much more TP than you're spending that you want to WS more frequently than sekka, change daggers to lower tp gain/feed and up your DPS. For instance, Acc/dex dagger and OA2-3 could become STP80 dagger and acc/dex dagger. Switch from
Sushi to pizza, etc. As long as your TP keeps up with the maximum extent of your duties, there is no reason not to.

Also though, with 5 finishing moves, meditate, no foot rise, and a multi-hit dagger, you should be able to safely WS more often than sekka anyway.

[urat]

If your party 'doesn't need any support', you're doing something else wrong.

Are your DD fulltiming hasso or counterstance? If no, have them do so as it'll help your damage more than attempting to DD yourself.

If in an alliance situation, could your alliance change a mage to a melee if you healed more? If yes, heal more and use more melee and less mages.

If in a single party situation with a RDM, can your RDM nuke? Your 45 TP waltz3 saves the RDM 88 mp, which is equivalent to about 550 damage nuking. Can you consistantly WS for 1200? If no, you're better off healing and having the RDM nuke.

Realistically, there are very limitted situations where your healing can't be used to open up other superior possibilities elsewhere in your setup. Take advantage of it, shit ain't a vacuum. As stated before, if you aren't healing you probably shouldn't be on DNC.

Yes, however not without gimping my healing and support so point is moot XP

I see what you mean, however in a party situation the red mage is probably lfp on red mage because they want to exp...on red mage. Asking them to change jobs because you want to do their job for them is kind of, eh?

In end game, ls, alliance etc etc I totally get what you mean though, and wholeheartedly agree. I entirely focus on spamming my waltzes and debuffs when doing end game, I don't have time to weaponskill.

But the discussion is on a party. There is the hasso/counterstance etc, so I'll ask about that in future parties, "Guys go nuts I can keep us alive" etc etc