Random Question Thread XII: Don't Believe Advanced's Lies

[Darkmagi]

The what? Cant find that anywhere - what is it?

DMG: 91 Delay: 420 STR +5 CHR +20
Great Katana Skill +3
Lv. 80 SAM

Drops off of Fistule.

[Neosutra]

edit: I lied, I found some time during lunch to do the math:

Kinda surprised:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...utra/GKDPS.jpg

Assumptions:

Tachi: Gekko, 145 str, capped fStr during WS, capped pDif during WS, gorget. 100tp
22% haste with masamune (not counting march/haste/samba). Turban, DG+1, Haidate, Usu feet, Speed Belt, Usu body.
22% haste with Scatacha, Same gear as Masamune + add Sam lvl 80 neck to keep 6 hit
22% haste with 464 delay OAT, swap pole grip + thew for rose strap + white tathum to get 5 hit.
Same for Stp GK except just rose strap with Stp Gkta, keep thew bomblet.

Note: Not having capped pDif during tp phase would push Fire Magians up a bit.

[Deader2818]

So, STP gkt if 5 hit is the 3rd best GKT?

[Neosutra]

Ya, but the last 3 are pretty damn close, and stp is marginally ahead of them. Add in factors like not being capped pDif during TP phase and fire magians overtakes it.

edit: Here is Hagun as a comparison:

Hagun 450 75 8 16 6 2.03 2.969 2.16146 91 1.17 7.02 638.82 800.8476875 1439.667688 0.4437274 5.9 37.4 38.49378844

Edit 2:

Relic 2.0 (not counting 2.5x procs, better WS, and added effect):

Relic 2.0 437 98 10 18 6 2.03 2.969 2.16146 116 1.17 7.02 814.32 758.5031563 1572.823156 0.517744158 5.7 36.2 43.44815349


So they all comfortably beat Hagun, with relic beating everything pretty comfortably.

[Thalandor46]

Was browsing through AE Polearm Trials on OtherWiki and I saw this note:

The additional Effect Defense Down does not seem to overwrite itself, meaning that you cannot get a 2nd proc until the first defense down wears off.

I'm almost certain that's not how Mezraq/Socrat work. Are all Magian additional effects like that, or just def down?

[Deader2818]

Oh, I was meaning to ask, for a zerg fight, would the order of gkts stay or does it change a bit?

[Neosutra]

Would entirely depend on the length of the zerg. If the zerg lasted only the duration of your WSs, the weapon with the highest WS damage would win (but note Hagun's TP bonus doesnt work with sekka). As the fight drags on, the highest DPS weapon would pull ahead.

[Deader2818]

Lets say for a AV zerg then. it would be the same order?

[Kalisa]

Is it possible for a DNC to solo Kotan-kor Kamuy, or is this just territory for RDMs and CORs dot/QD kiting?

If it's possible, how good an evasion set would I need? What I have right now is fairly terrible to be honest, but I have a little cash to throw at decent AH pieces.

[Neosutra]

Lets say for a AV zerg then. it would be the same order?

My WS/TP split for AV has been 30% TP 70% WS, if that gives you a better clue.

[Byrthnoth]

Is it possible for a DNC to solo Kotan-kor Kamuy, or is this just territory for RDMs and CORs dot/QD kiting?

If it's possible, how good an evasion set would I need? What I have right now is fairly terrible to be honest, but I have a little cash to throw at decent AH pieces.

He's ridiculously accurate, and I'm not sure the update has changed that. He also triple attacks and has en-terror. You don't necessarily need to DoT kite him exclusively, as you can mix in nukes too. I used to nuke him down around a lake. That said, I wouldn't bother going for this horn. I went 2/~20+, and for all we know they'll introduce a better one next update.

[CDF]

Just a few things:

(1) If you are assuming max pDIF (based on ATK/DEF ratio without level correction) for two-handers, estimates of mean non-critical pDIF and critical pDIF are 2.32 and 3.14 respectively (using 3.14 seems nitpicky, right?)

(2) Since the OAT katana is multi-hit, it will average fewer attack rounds to get to 100 TP than non-multi-hit counterparts. For 6 hit, the typical number of rounds is 4 and for 5 hit, 3.

(3) Great katana comparisons are going to be more sensitive to baseline pDIF than comparisons of other weapons where Y/G/K is concerned (because of their attack bonuses that apparently are applied after level correction)

(4) Holding TP will occur (that is, attack rounds after 100 TP is attained are allowed to occur) for whatever reason, so weapons with higher WS frequency will fare relatively worse than weapons with lower WS frequency (holding TP seems inevitable when zerging).

Although lower base damage relatively favors OAT vs higher-damage counterparts, Scathacha is decent (assuming you can get 6-hit) given (3) and (4), and it's a bit easier to "6-hit" a 437-delay weapon than 5-hit a 464-delay weapon. If holding TP never occurred, OAT 5-hit would generally be best but isn't as dominant (and may even be inferior to other options) as some would think mainly because of (3) and (4), but maybe that should be common sense in 2010.

[Kalisa]

He's ridiculously accurate, and I'm not sure the update has changed that. He also triple attacks and has en-terror. You don't necessarily need to DoT kite him exclusively, as you can mix in nukes too. I used to nuke him down around a lake. That said, I wouldn't bother going for this horn. I went 2/~20+, and for all we know they'll introduce a better one next update.

I have RDM leveled, but I honestly don't trust myself with it, as I don't do this sort of thing... ever... >.>;

Guess I'll keep using Mary's.

Edit: Actually, screw it. What's a good way to l2rdmkite? Practice mobs or something, increasing in difficulty.

[fredjanx]

What about Futsuno, Neo?

[Byrthnoth]

I have RDM leveled, but I honestly don't trust myself with it, as I don't do this sort of thing... ever... >.>;

Guess I'll keep using Mary's.

If you have W-legs, then it's a pretty easy fight. He'd moves as fast as you (so pull from a distance), but he paths like a retard around some of the lakes near the Sidhe. Look for one of the lakes with a tree near it. You could kill him with Bio/Poison given long enough, but getting some Blizzard IIIs off is going to cut down on your kill time a lot. You may be able to kill him without W-legs, but you'd have to pull with Powder boots.

On Maximum safety mode, your priorities would be:
1) 3 Utsu shadows up at all time. Run away if you don't have them up. He triple attacks and has en-terror.
2) Every time you cast anything with a long cast time, make sure you aren't facing him. He can terror you with a gaze too.
3) Composured Stonskin and Refresh at all times. Composure Stoneskin lasts twice as long as Refresh, so do it every other cycle.
4) Bio II/Poison II on him.
5) Blizzard III if you have MP for it.
6) He always does 3 Hoof Volleys or something back to back iirc. Once you get him locked into this mode you're really pretty safe. Keep outdistancing him and you can get 2-3 nukes off no worries because he takes forever to do the animation and it only takes one shadow.
7) Convert whenever you can, but only if you're fully buffed.

About 30-40 minutes of running in circles around a pond and you'll be okay. I play on PS2, and I abused the hell out of my Fast Cast gear macro when I was fighting this guy.

As far as learning to kite goes... I'd just start with this guy. You'll be disgusted by how easy RDM/NIN is once you've done it.

[Neosutra]

Just a few things:

(1) If you are assuming max pDIF (based on ATK/DEF ratio without level correction) for two-handers, estimates of mean non-critical pDIF and critical pDIF are 2.32 and 3.14 respectively (using 3.14 seems nitpicky, right?)

(2) Since the OAT katana is multi-hit, it will average fewer attack rounds to get to 100 TP than non-multi-hit counterparts. For 6 hit, the typical number of rounds is 4 and for 5 hit, 3.

(3) Great katana comparisons are going to be more sensitive to baseline pDIF than comparisons of other weapons where Y/G/K is concerned (because of their attack bonuses that apparently are applied after level correction)

(4) Holding TP will occur (that is, attack rounds after 100 TP is attained are allowed to occur) for whatever reason, so weapons with higher WS frequency will fare relatively worse than weapons with lower WS frequency (holding TP seems inevitable when zerging).

Although lower base damage relatively favors OAT vs higher-damage counterparts, Scathacha is decent (assuming you can get 6-hit) given (3) and (4), and it's a bit easier to "6-hit" a 437-delay weapon than 5-hit a 464-delay weapon. If holding TP never occurred, OAT 5-hit would generally be best but isn't as dominant (and may even be inferior to other options) as some would think mainly because of (3) and (4), but maybe that should be common sense in 2010.

Cant get the image to upload, so I'll just cut/paste from my spreadsheet. Changing the pDif values and attack rounds to 100 I get this new table:

(note I actually didnt event multiply the pDif by the base damage in the first chart... so the total TP damage was just base damage summation lol Q.Q. What I get for doing quickly during lunch).

Name Delay Damage Weapon rank (floor(base damage/9 )) fStr cap (weapon rank +8 ) Rounds to 100 TP pDif pDif crit pDif Avg D+fStr hits/round Hits/round to 100 TP Total TP damage WS Damage Total damage TP/Damage Proportion Seconds per round Time per WS DPS

OAT 464 71 6 14 3 2.32 3.14 2.443 85 1.55 4.65 965.59575 741.50825 1707.104 0.565633816 6.1 20.3 84.0937931

Relic 2.0 437 98 10 18 6 2.32 3.14 2.443 116 1.17 7.02 1989.38376 866.86075 2856.24451 0.696503312 5.7 36.2 78.90178204

Masamune 437 97 10 18 6 2.32 3.14 2.443 115 1.17 7.02 1972.2339 863.00375 2835.23765 0.695615022 5.7 36.2 78.32148204

Scathacha 420 91 10 18 6 2.32 3.14 2.443 109 1.17 7.02 1869.33474 854.3255 2723.66024 0.686331839 5.5 35 77.818864

Fire Magians 437 89 8 16 6 2.32 3.14 2.443 105 1.17 7.02 1800.7353 841.79025 2642.52555 0.681444802 5.7 36.2 72.99794337

Stp GK 464 91 10 18 5 2.32 3.14 2.443 109 1.15 5.75 1531.15025 839.86175 2371.012 0.645779207 6.1 32.5 72.95421538

Radenotachi 450 91 10 18 6 2.32 3.14 2.443 109 1.17 7.02 1869.33474 839.86175 2709.19649 0.689996 5.9 37.4 72.43840882

Futsuno 480 84 8 16 5 2.32 3.14 2.443 100 1.17 5.85 1429.155 828.29075 2257.44575 0.633084981 6.3 33.5 67.3864403


Hagun 450 75 8 16 6 2.32 3.14 2.443 91 1.17 7.02 1560.63726 915.2545 2475.89176 0.630333396 5.9 37.4 66.20031444

Missing factors like relic 2.5 proc, WS ability delay, TP bleed over, lvl correction, and non capped pDif analysis.

edit: added Futsuno with 5 hit (and used 1% more haste with futsuno since the 8 stp allows you to use fuma over usu feet and still keep 5 hit with usu body/rajas/brutal).

[fredjanx]

Don't Futsuno and Fire Hyogugusarinotachi have a WpnRank of 9?

[Neosutra]

Don't Futsuno and Fire Hyogugusarinotachi have a WpnRank of 9?

Should lol, let me check what's up with the sheet.

edit: Not sure why it floored the values for everything else but fucked up the Futsuno/Fire magians weapon rank, but fixed. Doesnt change the DPS much though, nor the order of weapons.

Though as CDF pointed out, there is more to the "what's better" equation than just the formulated DPS here.

[fredjanx]

Should lol, let me check what's up with the sheet.

edit: Not sure why it floored the values for everything else but fucked up the Futsuno/Fire magians weapon rank, but fixed. Doesnt change the DPS much though, nor the order of weapons.

Though as CDF pointed out, there is more to the "what's better" equation than just the formulated DPS here.

Kokushitsunotachi is 7 wpn rank, too.... but
due to TP overflow, OAT weapons fall behind, rite?

[Trauma]

I'm looking for an easier way to find Mog Tablets without resorting to ApRadar. Can anyone confirm that ROM/188/60.DAT is the Mog Tablet .dat? Also, does anyone have any suggestions on what to change it to? I was thinking ROM/185/34.DAT because it's big and easy to spot.