Random Question Thread XII: Don't Believe Advanced's Lies

[Diddy Kong]

Well I don't know what to say then. RDM is good to have if you like soloing and useful for any endgame-ish events you might do. Otherwise just level something you enjoy if you're not leveling a job for an LS.

My events consist of camping Behemoth and Adamantoise to no avail, wasting time in my salvage shell since we're always short and the leader refuses to find more members, and just soloing random crap. I want something I can solo, or tank with besides PLD. Something to use similar gear and merits.

So I'm stuck between SAM, NIN, PUP, or DNC.

[Darkmagi]

I would do DNC personally since you already have MNK for damage. Great PT job and a capable soloer. (can't solo anything too hardcore but none of those jobs can)

random question: Are the delays on windower scripted macros broken? I can't get . delays to work right, especially for JA and WS. Unsure if I'm just doing something wrong or they don't work.

[Diddy Kong]

I would do DNC personally since you already have MNK for damage. Great PT job and a capable soloer. (can't solo anything too hardcore but none of those jobs can)

Well DNC is my closest one too, so probably will go that route.

How is this for a TP build for DNC:

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/168518

It is within my budget, or leftover from my MNK, if not easily obtainable for me.

Edit: Will DNC be useful in a endgame shell?

[Darkmagi]

Unsure of ideal DNC daggers but you could work on the OAT2-3 dagger for offhand, soloable just takes time. Otherwise looks okay, acc mantle when acc isn't capped and maybe try to get the dual wield neck off khalamari in abyssea.

[Byrthnoth]

So, I'll admit that I started trying to do math to disprove the DNC zerging idea. It seems dumb to zerg with a support job. I still think that it may be killed by the lack of attack.

However, it seems SE hasn't adjusted dagger damage down far enough to combat DNC having access to them.

D39 Auric/D38 Dex Kila (201+190 delay) with AF neck and Suppa swings every 215 delay
50% Double Attack from 1 minute of Saber Dance (+7.5% from Brutal and /WAR, I assume)
60*(D39*1.575 + D38*1.575)/215 = 33.84 DPS before Haste

Monk is:
Spharai (D34+35+3 = D72, 386 delay), 15% Double Attack and 15% Kick Attacks (D38 )
(72*2*1.15+.15*38 )*60/386 = 26.62 DPS before Haste

They both have access to similar Haste totals, and I used two potentially non-optimal daggers for DNC (but ones that I expect to have) while I used the DPS of the relic for Monk.

Things that tilt it in the favor of Monk:
1) Dancer has less Attack from skill (-20 Atk) and gear.
2) Despite the Accuracy bonus job traits, Dancer may still have less accuracy than Monk due to gearing options (-18 Acc from skill, +22 from JTs, -?? from gear)
3) Dancer will be expected to Presto -> Box Step the monster, which is likely to hurt them in the zerg.
4) Monk gets a lot more STR (and fSTR) than Dancer does. Every 4 STR that MNK has more than DNC can count as an extra 1 base damage per hand (and kick?).

I don't know, I expected the math to come out much more in favor of monk than it did. Did I do something wrong?

Edit: remembered fSTR in the list

[requim]

Do you get Haste Samba effect if you're using an Additional Effect main hand with a non-add effect offhand? IE, are people with "Weakens Defense" daggers screwing themselves?

If this has not been tested, how would someone on PS2 test it?

Pretty sure I've gone RDM with enspell II in main hand and got drain samba in the offhand. I think it also works with Joy and any OAX that the added procs can also gain the samba effect for you. If it worked with drain samba I don't see why it wouldn't with haste, but you could just check for the animation when you swing.

For someone with just MNK leveled, what would be a second job to take up?

It depends on what you want to do. Monk is limited against anything you can't punch/kick hard. Typically you want to fulfill multiple roles like melee damage, ranged/magic damage, healing, support, or tanking.

Monk can DD and tank, but that's basically it. Chi Blast is pretty old school and it can only heal/support as /DNC, so you would need a change that can either nuke, heal, or support.

If you wanted to keep with a DD you could level up PUP because it shares much of the same gear and similar merits. Using the BLM puppet can give you magic damage and the WHM puppet coupled with /SCH can also let you heal. Downside is puppet attachments can be pretty pricey and some of its non-monk gear is quite difficult to get.

Alternatively, BRD and COR are both jokes to level and pretty much guaranteed a spot in any sort of event. You can easily have too many melee DDs, it's significantly harder to end up with too much support (and people who wouldn't want to change jobs). Both can be leveled with little investment and don't need very much gear to serve their primary buff roles.

If you wanted a mage, RDM would probably be the most versatile, plus when soloing you could revert to meleeing on it if that's your thing. SCH can nuke and heal as well, though personally I was never fond of it beyond a SJ. WHM is better at healing, though it has no serious magical offense. BLM is the opposite boat. SMN is another decent combo job like RDM|SCH, but it requires far more in terms of gear and merits to get passed the mediocre stage.

If you lack a linkshell there's no real purpose to leveling PLD.

If you only want to DD, ranger would be the next useful pure DD since you gain range. If you do Ursine Claws OA2-3, monk is basically like a two handed job.

PUP is a great option for you since you can double dip all the inevitable moogle trials you'll need to do for decent weapons. It can nuke and heal, has movement speed, shares H2H merits, shares a lot of MNK gear, but you would actually have to enjoy the job to really make it useful.

Ninja is pretty limited in its uses now. Basically I doubt you would be soloing much that you couldn't on monk and in a group, monk would be better for you. Samurai is basically like a monk with OA2-3 claws. All three jobs are basically DDs that can tank, and that's about all of their usefulness.

Dancer has a lot of uses in groups as a healer and support. It's still a front line job so you would have issues with anything you couldn't effectively melee on monk or dancer, but it doesn't sound like you would encounter such situations frequently. The TP set you listed for it was pretty decent so you could easily do low manned events successfully.

[Atoreis]

So, I'll admit that I started trying to do math to disprove the DNC zerging idea. It seems dumb to zerg with a support job. I still think that it may be killed by the lack of attack.

However, it seems SE hasn't adjusted dagger damage down far enough to combat DNC having access to them.

D39 Auric/D38 Dex Kila (201+190 delay) with AF neck and Suppa swings every 215 delay
50% Double Attack from 1 minute of Saber Dance (+7.5% from Brutal and /WAR, I assume)
60*(D39*1.575 + D38*1.575)/215 = 33.84 DPS before Haste

Monk is:
Spharai (D34+35+3 = D72, 386 delay), 15% Double Attack and 15% Kick Attacks (D38)
(72*2*1.15+.15*38)*60/386 = 26.62 DPS before Haste

They both have access to similar Haste totals, and I used two potentially non-optimal daggers for DNC (but ones that I expect to have) while I used the DPS of the relic for Monk.

Things that tilt it in the favor of Monk:
1) Dancer has less Attack from skill (-20 Atk) and gear.
2) Despite the Accuracy bonus job traits, Dancer may still have less accuracy than Monk due to gearing options (-18 Acc from skill, +22 from JTs, -?? from gear)
3) Dancer will be expected to Presto -> Box Step the monster, which is likely to hurt them in the zerg.

I don't know, I expected the math to come out much more in favor of monk than it did. Did I do something wrong?

You did nothing wrong. I was suprised as you when I got this idea and made the first math. Also few advantage of 2x 5dnc (like thorny suggested) would be :
5 DNCs in 1st pt can pull of 5/5 box step from 1 sec of the fight (-13%def) (while in mnk zerg with 2 DNC they will pull off 7% on start then 11% after 15sec and another 2% after 30sec)
5 DNCs in 2nd pt can pull of Quick Step or Stutter step
Quick will benefit on more evasive mobs when stutter for more resistance on stun (Quick 5/5 is -24 eva and Stutter 5/5 is -25% magic evasion)
After heavy AoE dmg 5 DNCs can pull off instant aoe cures for 2000HP total.
DNC has access to stun move every 20 sec which with Stutter 5/5 has fairly big chance to land so thats potencialy 10-20 random stuns to help RDM if needed ( I would risk opinion that on some fight you wouldnt even need a chainspell ).

[Byrthnoth]

You did nothing wrong. I was suprised as you when I got this idea and made the first math. Also few advantage of 2x 5dnc (like thorny suggested) would be :
5 DNCs in 1st pt can pull of 5/5 box step from 1 sec of the fight (-13%def) (while in mnk zerg with 2 DNC they will pull off 7% on start then 11% after 15sec and another 2% after 30sec)
5 DNCs in 2nd pt can pull of Quick Step or Stutter step
Quick will benefit on more evasive mobs when stutter for more resistance on stun (Quick 5/5 is -24 eva and Stutter 5/5 is -25% magic evasion)
After heavy AoE dmg 5 DNCs can pull off instant aoe cures for 2000HP total.
DNC has access to stun move every 20 sec which with Stutter 5/5 has fairly big chance to land so thats potencialy 10-20 random stuns to help RDM if needed ( I would risk opinion that on some fight you wouldnt even need a chainspell ).

Well:
1) With Presto, 2 DNC can give 4/5 Box Step within the first second of the fight. (Obviously, 3 can cap it)
2) Dancers can't Waltz when they're using Saber Dance.
3) I forgot Focus in my comparison, so a zerging Monk obviously has much more Accuracy than DNC.
4) During a zerg with DNC, you won't be using any abilities that you can avoid. For Dancer, this includes weaponskills.
5) About Stun, see #4, but also if you're zerging something stunnable then you're likely to be chainspell stunning it.
6) Feint and Angon can't be assumed for every Zerg, buuuuuuut they'd benefit Dancer if they could.

[Atoreis]

Well:
1) With Presto, 2 DNC can give 4/5 Box Step within the first second of the fight. (Obviously, 3 can cap it)
2) Dancers can't Waltz when they're using Saber Dance.
3) I forgot Focus in my comparison, so a zerging Monk obviously has much more Accuracy than DNC.
4) During a zerg with DNC, you won't be using any abilities that you can avoid. For Dancer, this includes weaponskills.
5) About Stun, see #4, but also if you're zerging something stunnable then you're likely to be chainspell stunning it.
6) Feint and Angon can't be assumed for every Zerg, buuuuuuut they'd benefit Dancer if they could.

1)My bad
2)My bad
3)5/5 quick step still would be in play also
4)Probably
5)Would be good for mini zerg but i quess thats another topic
6)Agree

So yeah big mistake on waltzes sorry!

[Byrthnoth]

Thorny! Tell us we're crazy, and then tell us why!

[Atoreis]

Thorny! Tell us we're crazy, and then tell us why!

Thorny is busy lvling DNC :D

[Nightfyre]

Pretty sure Thorny's had DNC for a while now, lol.

I did some math a while back and arrived at the same conclusion, DPS-wise. I found that a support role DNC was still preferable for the group as a whole in many situations, but their damage potential is quite high.

[Atoreis]

Pretty sure Thorny's had DNC for a while now, lol.

I did some math a while back and arrived at the same conclusion, DPS-wise. I found that a support role DNC was still preferable for the group as a whole in many situations, but their damage potential is quite high.

Thorny is busy getting Auric and Kila* Ftfm :D

[Thorny]

Weird stuff

Fan dance and removal of dancer's natural weaknesses through zerg buffs are the reasons this works well on paper. During the rest of a dynamis run, a setup including 5 DNC is severely gimped compared to DNC + 4 MNK. This is the same reason I originally proposed MNK zerg over DRK: Drastic increase in damage during the non-zerg part of a run. At this stage in the game, there are no difficult zergs. Optimizing these is aiming for the least 2-hrs used(kirin, baha2, other mobs that you do multiples) or the least failure rate(Cop dyna, dynamis lord, king vinegaroon, vrtra, einherjar). While DNC can put out very nice damage on paper, it requires enough buffs that it's terrible in the first situation, and in the second it brings nothing to the table that MNK or DRK wouldn't, depending on fight. Furthermore, your party's usefulness for the rest of the run is drastically decreased by bringing that many DNCs instead of actual damage dealers.. when you don't have SV buffs your damage will drop like a rock in comparison to a properly geared MNK/WAR or SAM/WAR or {insert slightly less good but still decent and not-BST dd here}. You seem to have entirely overlooked this explanation last time I posted it, which seems like you're just trying too hard to make this look viable. If I'm missing something, or outright wrong, please tell me why, don't ignore my points. I'm not denying that DNC has extremely high potential when given zerg buffs. I'm looking for a reason that DNC zerging will be more efficient in any way than another zerg setup for a given mob. Specifics preferred.

PS: I have DNC, Auric Dagger, and an Eyes of Verthandi Athame. I can get a kila easily, I just don't see a point in it. If you aren't fan dancing, the Parazonium that comes from Athame will far outstrip any Kila. The primary reasons to own it are lack of ability to get a Parazonium, lack of ability to get an Auric Dagger, and just plain ignorance. Am I missing something here, or is your assumption that Kila is god based solely on DNC zerg with fan dance up? Using your TP on waltzes as your primary objective is far more efficient in dynamis/einherjar/exp/abyssea/anyplace you don't have zerg buffs..

[Phraust]

I have been trying to test the "Increases Critical Hit Damage" on the Cavaros Mantle and am stumped.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11553/cavaros-mantle

Tried Naked w a Kilia (AGI/Evasion one) Sneak Attacking on Wild rabbits subbing dancer w/no offhand @ 339 Attack.

Did 30 kills each with and without mantle to get a baseline reading.

I found that there was absolutely no difference in the averages.

After that I put on gear, Full Hecatomb Etc, and tested again, again 30 per; and found NO MANTLE was about 5% higher.

Aside form small sample sizes, what am I doing wrong here? Or is it possible the mantle is just broken?

[Byrthnoth]

Well, I guess that's the argument against it. However, don't underestimate the DEX/Acc Kila. It's better for TP gain than Auric Dagger below 91% hit rate, and better for DPS below 88% hit rate.

Summary of the argument:
Most events that involve a zerg (Dynamis-X, CoP Dynamis, etc) strive to have a 2 or 3:1 DD:DNC ratio. In that situation, DNCs would be better off keeping their fingers over Divine Waltz II during the zerg and not riding Saber Dance.

[Thorny]

Summary of the argument:
Most events that involve a zerg (Dynamis-X, CoP Dynamis, etc) strive to have a 2 or 3:1 DD:DNC ratio. In that situation, DNCs would be better off keeping their fingers over Divine Waltz II during the zerg and not riding Saber Dance.

Not what I was saying at all, actually. If you feel you might be short on required damage moreso than you feel your DD could be harmed, fan dance zerging is very powerful for picking up slack if you have the DNC there anyway. The problem comes, however, from comparing DNC to MNK. You're looking at a drastic decrease in damage for the rest of said event, in exchange for an increase in damage during a 30-180 second fight(depending which and how you handle it). It's terribly inefficient. Bringing DRKs as DD will outdo bringing DNC as dd at current, they'll put out higher numbers during zerg while doing between a DNC and a MNK for the rest of the run.

I'll try to make a clearer explanation: Optimize for the event, not for the zerg.
- If you feel your chainstun could fail due to fast moves, DRKs are a bad choice. If they get damaged, your damage goes byebye.

- If you feel that you're going to be drastically short on damage for the zerg, MNKs are not going to be the best idea. and neither will dancers. DRKs will provide the most output, and do so in only 30 seconds compared to the 60-120 DNC and MNK zerging typically lasts.

- If you're going to be engaging anything else with a drastic penalty for changing jobs or inability to change jobs, bringing 5 DNC is bat shit retarded. You're tearing apart your setup for everything except the zerg, primary goal of dynamis is still farming and a 30 second boss win is more or less the same as a 90 second boss win.

Keeping these 3 points in mind, I cannot think of a situation where I'd use DNCs solely for zerg. A dancer in the melee party can still output quite a bit of damage, but they're there for haste samba and cures during the rest of the run. They're not there to do UBEROMGWTFZERGing, as that can be handled in a multitude of other ways. MNK's primary upsides are it's usefulness vs plain mobs and massive HP pool. Comparing a taru MNK to a galka DNC in abyssea is not a good example either, galka MNKs exist and anything in abyssea is applying to both.

[Devolver]

Anwig Salade. Ws acc +15. That just for the first hit, or does that include all hits? I remember seeing the testing awhile back but i cant find it for the life of me.

[Khajit]

Would ShellV 5/5 merits be as strong as it was pre update or would it get another enhancement from having used the scroll?

[Darkmagi]

Would ShellV 5/5 merits be as strong as it was pre update or would it get another enhancement from having used the scroll?

What? lol Shell V is just a single target shellra V, does it even get the enhancement from merits?