FFXIV Random Speculation/Question thread IV: I got beta inv but my 5 year old PC can't run it

[Skeeterxi]

So basically you don't like it = it will blow? Not like it's not a common mindset though.

On this issue, for most PC gamers and other MMO players, yeah actually. If you are building a game for PC you should have PC compatible controls. There is a reason every PC game uses the same basic control system, because it works and its efficient. Like I said most FFXI vets will be fine with, they are comfortable with all keyboard controls, its a natural feel for them. The majority won't be. They can have the best story, best graphics, best setting in this game, if they don't like the way the game controls, they are not going to play it.

If SE is dead set on having shitty console controls ported to PC again they should ship this game with a game pad.

[Lucavi]

Read what I said. I said MMO players from OTHER MMOs, not FF players. I said you only WANT FF players (specifically FFXI players) because FF games have never traditionally had the things that players of other MMOs want in FFXIV, I.E. jumping, sitting on chairs, and basic interaction with the environment outside of specific tasks such as crafting and fighting.

Basically, flavor. There's never been flavor in FFXI or other FF's outside of cutscenes, while it exists in other MMOs. Hence, the concept of flavor catches a shitload of flack from FFXI purists as not being necessary or even important in the face of things such as combat, crafting, economics, HNMs.

Which, IMO, is true, to a point. You absolutely want the core mechanics to be iron-clad and air-tight, but there's also room for your game to not operate so stiff that the only things you can do are work work and work. Something as simple as being able to walk around with your weapon in-hand was so intensely considered "fluff" that the SE devs sill haven't figured out how to do it correctly, despite nearly every other MMO managing to do it easily.

That was my point, Hyan. It's not a knock on FF players, its just the way it is.

Edit: Actually, Skeeter, that would have been a badass idea to promote the new pad controls - ship the CE with a custom FFXI controller...

[Meko]

I think there is a lot to be said for ease of use when it comes to PC gaming. Being able to use the mouse and WASD is a big part of that. It's the norm so people are comfortable with it and it makes for a more pleasant gaming experience typically. I played FFXI and never really had any issues with the controls as it was my first MMO but having played WoW, I really enjoy the control system a lot more in WoW. I've also played Age of Conan, EQ2 and Warhammer over the past couple years and all of those used a similar control system. The controls for FFXI are very dated and I hope they bring 14 to 2010.

[Lucavi]

To further my point.

This post up here: ^^ That one. FFXI players won't care about that, because it involves shit from other games. That's the point, Hyan. Its all fluff if it never existed in FFXI, but in other games.

[Hyan]

If SE is dead set on having shitty console controls ported to PC again they should ship this game with a game pad.

That would be awesome :D.

Okay Lucavi, I get it. I also want the social interaction though, even if it means some gameplay needs be sacrificed :D. That's not a core mechanic, IMO, but still important in the long run.

[Lucavi]

Its not too late! Someone contact Wada!

[Destinye]

"Every other MMO" also fails in most other aspect but it's main draw point, which in most generic MMOs based on the 90s design - PvP. The story is generally what suffers the most next to the atmosphere of the game.

FF games are full of flavor, just not in the eyes of the western gamers. What people say are "unnecessary" are because it really is..in all actuality when you think about the "fluff" features some want...it doesn't really add anything to the game. I mean jumping..whoo hoo..what does it do really? It doesn't open any additional content, this game will suddenly not become an Ys game with the addition of Jumps.

[Jinko]

I read on another forum that the lack of proper PC controls is actually the number one complaint on the beta forums, that is the exact reception this game will get by the majority when it releases too.

Yup out of 36 pages of the UI/Controls thread about 80% (maybe more) are about the crappy controls.

[Meko]

"Every other MMO" also fails in most other aspect but it's main draw point, which in most generic MMOs based on the 90s design - PvP. The story is generally what suffers the most next to the atmosphere of the game.

FF games are full of flavor, just not in the eyes of the western gamers. What people say are "unnecessary" are because it really is..in all actuality when you think about the "fluff" features some want...it doesn't really add anything to the game. I mean jumping..whoo hoo..what does it do really? It doesn't open any additional content, this game will suddenly not become an Ys game with the addition of Jumps.

While I don't care about jumping that much (it's not a deal breaker), it's pretty cool to be able to feel apart of the world. To be able to jump and swim is pretty awesome to me. The freedom of movement certainly makes the game world feel more alive. WoW offers it quite well in that regards.

[Yoli]

I personally find it baffling that people care about being able to use a mouse when a keyboard could work just fine on it's own. Why even want to use two input devices when one does the job? Does swinging the mouse left to right to change the view really work that much better for you than hitting the left/right arrow keys? Why?

I mean... I'm not against them allowing to people to use mice. If it makes you guys happy, there's no reason not to. But I just don't get it. Who cares if game x/y/z uses a mouse, if you can make a game that works fine without using one?

Having the keyboard controls mangled up like they seem to be now is awful though. That's just as baffling to me, I have no idea why they'd do that. At the very least they should give you a choice between keyboard set ups, if not allow you to customize it yourself. I'm still hopeful that they'll change it, just because what they've done with the beta makes so little sense to me.

Even if PC users aren't the key demo, and they want the game to work primarily on a pad, why go to the bother of making the keyboard input /worse/ than it was?

[Skeeterxi]

Yup out of 36 pages of the UI/Controls thread about 80% (maybe more) are about the crappy controls.

That is depressing. You can tell they didn't cherry pick FFXI players to beta test huh? I'm afraid most people who try this game will feel the exact same way and won't give the game a fair chance if the controls suck. I know I probably won't. SE is amazing at making stories and environments to explore and learn, why cripple our adventure through it with shitty controls.

[Amele]

surely I'm not the only PC gaming enthusiast who only likes his mouse for mouse oriented tasks (3rd person camera controls not being one of them)

if the user interface supports a mouse, I'll be happy.

if it requires a mouse? I'm not so sure.

a social rpg shouldn't really *require* mouse input simply to manipulate a camera, when a typical keyboard gives you every surface you could ask for. it's not like we're playing something that requires twitch precision aiming or anything like that.

(wasd, cursors, numeric keypad, more 'hotkeys' than you can shake a stick at. etc).

[Hyan]

That is depressing. You can tell they didn't cherry pick FFXI players to beta test huh? I'm afraid most people who try this game will feel the exact same way and won't give the game a fair chance if the controls suck. I know I probably won't. SE is amazing at making stories and environments to explore and learn, why cripple our adventure through it with shitty controls.

The controls aren't shitty by any stretch.

Most PC players are not going to bother still, as you said though.

[Skeeterxi]

I personally find it baffling that people care about being able to use a mouse when a keyboard could work just fine on it's own. Why even want to use two input devices when one does the job? Does swinging the mouse left to right to change the view really work that much better for you than hitting the left/right arrow keys? Why?

I mean... I'm not against them allowing to people to use mice. If it makes you guys happy, there's no reason not to. But I just don't get it. Who cares if game x/y/z uses a mouse, if you can make a game that works fine without using one?

Having the keyboard controls mangled up like they seem to be now is awful though. That's just as baffling to me, I have no idea why they'd do that. At the very least they should give you a choice between keyboard set ups, if not allow you to customize it yourself. I'm still hopeful that they'll change it, just because what they've done with the beta makes so little sense to me.

Even if PC users aren't the key demo, and they want the game to work primarily on a pad, why go to the bother of making the keyboard input /worse/ than it was?

Yes it does make that much of a difference. You have not played many other games that make good use of a mouse have you?

[Lucavi]

"Every other MMO" also fails in most other aspect but it's main draw point, which in most generic MMOs based on the 90s design - PvP. The story is generally what suffers the most next to the atmosphere of the game.

FF games are full of flavor, just not in the eyes of the western gamers. What people say are "unnecessary" are because it really is..in all actuality when you think about the "fluff" features some want...it doesn't really add anything to the game. I mean jumping..whoo hoo..what does it do really? It doesn't open any additional content, this game will suddenly not become an Ys game with the addition of Jumps.

The flavor is in the cutscenes, not in what we actually do. Look at the range of motion that PCs and NPCs have in cutscenes, then compare them to the range of motion that you, yourself, actually has control over. The flavor comes by way of what you see others do, not what you, yourself do.

What we actually do is quite limited. We fight, we craft, we gather, we run, we walk, we do a few emotes. What we -could- do is what becomes subject to the "fluff or flavor" debate.

There is very little roleplaying that can be done within the confines of FFXI, and while I am not the biggest fan, nor proponent of roleplaying, I do recognize that some people like to get into their characters more than others. I'm of the opinion that having the freedom to interact with not only one another, but with one's environment a little better than what is currently the standard in FFXI and FFXIV would go a long way towards realizing Wada's dream of snagging some of the subscriptions of FFXIV's rivals.

Regardless of how much the "flavor or fluff" adds to the game, having more options always allows for more variety and more individual choice. There wasn't much of a choice in FFXI if you wanted to do something other than fight, craft, or gather, and from the looks and feel of it, FFXIV will follow similar suit.

This all goes back to what I originally said: for FFXI players, this is absolutely fine. For those who dipped into many MMOs, it becomes more of an issue.

For BG, however, on the whole, it is not an issue. I don't think there's anything "bullshit" about that statement, Hyan.

Edit: As for the controls, I'll say again that I was fine with FFXI's controls at the time. I still don't mind them; not using the mouse and all, but these current beta controls aren't even like FFXI's. They took away the arrow pad controls, AND the number pad controls, both of which worked fine in FFXI.

Freedom is the key, no matter what control scheme we're using. The rotating camera speed works fine if using the keyboard controls (which they absolutely have to restore; no question), but the speed becomes clunky when using the mouse. Its better for them to figure out the mouse controls so that they can simply appeal to a wider number of players. Its an easy fix that doesn't involve introducing any "fluff" that core FFXI players seem so set against.

The mouse issue really shouldn't even be one. Its 2010. You should always have more options than you need, and allow the player to pick what's best.

[Jinko]

Does swinging the mouse left to right to change the view really work that much better for you than hitting the left/right arrow keys? Why?

Analogue controls, so yes its many times easier/better than digital arrow keys.

[Skeeterxi]

surely I'm not the only PC gaming enthusiast who only likes his mouse for mouse oriented tasks (3rd person camera controls not being one of them)

if the user interface supports a mouse, I'll be happy.

if it requires a mouse? I'm not so sure.

a social rpg shouldn't really *require* mouse input simply to manipulate a camera, when a typical keyboard gives you every surface you could ask for. it's not like we're playing something that requires twitch precision aiming or anything like that.

(wasd, cursors, numeric keypad, more 'hotkeys' than you can shake a stick at. etc).

It shouldn't REQUIRE a mouse, you are absolutely correct. If people want to play all keyboard like FFXI that should an option and their decision. People play WoW like that too. But the options for keyboard+mouse should be there for people who are more comfortable with that, which will be a HUGE majority of PC gamers.

[Hyan]

For BG, however, on the whole, it is not an issue. I don't think there's anything "bullshit" about that statement, Hyan.

BG forums are under the opinion that if no new players bought FFXIV, it would be a good thing

While I get what you meant, the above is still BS. I'm all up for having as many FF players to buy FFXIV as possible.

[Meko]

I think the huge bonus to using a mouse is being able to point and click on things. Having to use tab or T or F8 etc is fine as well but both options should be available. You don't have to use a mouse in my experiences as you can set hot keys and such for all kinds of things. I think the idea is that people want a simple UI with mouse capabilities for whatever they want. My experiences offer a pretty good option for that.

PS - I'm only using my experiences as an example...not trying to fire up a FF v. my experiences convo etc.

[Hyan]

Absolutely nothing was said here.