Iroquois is a Country? Travelling on Iroquois Passport

[Vuitton]

They are not recognised by any state as a distinct entity under international law, and thus its passports are merely accepted as a courtesy rather than out of diplomatic obligation.

On top of this, passport regulations have tightened up so it doesn't matter if they were accepted previously. (I haven't seen any evidence where Iroquois, specifically, have traveled abroad previously with Iroquois passports. Only other Native Americans.)

On top of that, U.S. territories and their citizens are required to use U.S. passports when traveling abroad. Puerto Rico, ect. I don't see how the Native Americans are different.

On top of all that, these specific players haven't renounced their U.S. citizenship because the Secretary of State handed them all U.S. passports to allow them to travel internationally.

These people sure have a lot of pride. Time to accept the reality of their lives.

So its all well and good for the nerd ragers who feel passionately about the plight of the redskins, but it doesn't matter. You can get as mad as you want but its not going to make their little rinky dink construction paper art project "passports" valid in the eyes of anyone.

[Hyriu]

holy fuck

you guys

[Kuya]

Why did cads get banned?

[Cleverness]

Excellent! We have finally established that passports accepted by the US don't exist in the treaties! I'm very proud of you, Darus Grey, you're showing growth.

This is why you're a stupid bitch. If they are said to be a sovereign nation, and the U.S. doesn't relegate some of their rights, they are assumed to have those rights you dumb cunt. As I mentioned before they were able to conduct their own criminal investigations and put people in prison, something every nation in the world practices. Sometime in the 70's the U.S. removed that right from them. If they didn't want them to use their own passports, all they'd need is to pass a law stating so and the problem is done.

But because they've been using the shit for years without issue then it's not a problem with the passport, it's a problem with the UK and Canada who suddenly for no reason refused it. If you want to tighten security that's well within their right, but releasing an updated statement doing so is easy to do and would have avoided this entire fucking dilemma. But stopping these people at the last minute for no reason with no explanation that is actually valid is unacceptable.

If they haven't even presented a bill that does so, and the passport worked as early as last year, as early as 4 years ago for the same tournament, there's obviously nothing fucking wrong with it. Not everyone is as dumb as you that every law needs to be written out, there are implied laws within our own fucking Constitution. Seriously just stop posting.

[Rhinox]

Why did cads get banned?

^

[Vuitton]

I hear other U.S. territories conduct their own investigations and put people in prison too, they still have to use U.S. passports.

Puerto Rico keeps popping up as like the best example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_...ice_Department

I love Puerto Rico (and its sexy men).

[Ksandra]

Why did cads get banned?

I haven't been able to keep up because I got parents here for the wedding BUT I'm pretty sure it's a glitch (I'm going to get it fixed).

we have a new "time out" function for mods, and it's based off of infractions (5 points or more). And for some reason cad has something for 1000 points done back in april that never expired, so I think it automatically put him there.


It should be fixed soon.

[Cadsuane]

I haven't been able to keep up because I got parents here for the wedding BUT I'm pretty sure it's a glitch (I'm going to get it fixed).

we have a new "time out" function for mods, and it's based off of infractions (5 points or more). And for some reason cad has something for 1000 points done back in april that never expired, so I think it automatically put him there.


It should be fixed soon.

Good ol' Xavier.

Dear Cadsuane,

You have received an infraction at Order of the Blue Gartr.

Reason: Because.
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So long forever.
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This infraction is worth 1000 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

Thanks, by the way.

[Ksandra]

Good ol' Xavier.



Thanks, by the way.

ya sorry about that, good to know it got fixed.

[Maaglin]

This is why you're a stupid bitch. If they are said to be a sovereign nation, and the U.S. doesn't relegate some of their rights, they are assumed to have those rights you dumb cunt. As I mentioned before they were able to conduct their own criminal investigations and put people in prison, something every nation in the world practices. Sometime in the 70's the U.S. removed that right from them. If they didn't want them to use their own passports, all they'd need is to pass a law stating so and the problem is done.

But because they've been using the shit for years without issue then it's not a problem with the passport, it's a problem with the UK and Canada who suddenly for no reason refused it. If you want to tighten security that's well within their right, but releasing an updated statement doing so is easy to do and would have avoided this entire fucking dilemma. But stopping these people at the last minute for no reason with no explanation that is actually valid is unacceptable.

If they haven't even presented a bill that does so, and the passport worked as early as last year, as early as 4 years ago for the same tournament, there's obviously nothing fucking wrong with it. Not everyone is as dumb as you that every law needs to be written out, there are implied laws within our own fucking Constitution. Seriously just stop posting.

You do realize that a law was passed about a year ago that changed the requirements yes? It's only been stated about 100x in this thread.

So it wasn't like "suddenly" and "for no reason". In fact I do seem to recall, yeah, that's right, that they were informed by the SECRETARY OF STATE that they needed US passports to travel before they left, and that she even offered to personally see to it that they were expedited. Our own state department wasn't going to let them back in the US without prior written approval from the SECRETARY OF STATE.

Bottom line is that if they really cared about playing, they would have taken the SECRETARY OF STATES offer to play. Instead, they've chosen to exploit this as a race/ethnic issue. Good for them, enjoy wasting all your time, effort, and money and then throwing it all down the drain. Bravo.

Next time my local team needs a little help traveling, I hope the goddam SECRETARY OF STATE has a few minutes to expedite us some passports. But since we're not a minority, I highly doubt it. Shit.

They are not recognised by any state as a distinct entity under international law, and thus its passports are merely accepted as a courtesy rather than out of diplomatic obligation.

Considering that the requirements in terms of documents needed to travel internationally have changed within the last year (which I'm sure you're all up on), your hand written polaroid photo "passport" isn't good enough anymore. All American citizens are expected to travel with official US passports. You want to play the idenity game? You want to refuse "foreign" passports? Fine. Just don't plan to travel internationally.

You want to know what's simple? When the Secretary of State offers to expedite you real passports, you go ahead and accept that offer.

[Darus Grey]

Why don't you have any minorities on your team?

Sounds pretty racist.

[aduidarnenye]

lol, it's seriously cute when you think you're being serious.

We established there's nothing about passports in the treaties?

No you imbicile, *I* established it, only after you failed to get the hint that implying there would be anything specifically about passports in a document that predates our modern use of them was retarded to begin with.

For the rest, not only did I specifically address that a dozen times, but in that very post.

Course what does it matter? I could tell you anything I want and you'd never know otherwise.

Only growth you'll see from me is my dick, right before I slap you with it.

I take it then, that you're not going to answer the questions about sovereign nation compared to separate country and the US territory as defined by the US government?

I really was so hoping you'd enlighten me further with your boundless knowledge.

[Maaglin]

double

[Cleverness]

I take it then, that you're not going to answer the questions about sovereign nation compared to separate country and the US territory as defined by the US government?

I really was so hoping you'd enlighten me further with your boundless knowledge.

Considering the law already dictates them as a sovereign nation, no, IT IS ON YOU to provide the proof proving otherwise considering they have been recognized up till now as a sovereign nation. You'd have a point if their passport was straight up denied the entire time they've been using it, but it's been fine until this year, and nothing has changed in the Iroquois nation or in the laws regarding how the U.S. views them, but how (so far) only the U.K. and Canada view them.

Stop trying to make him do your job for you because you can't do it yourself.

[Maaglin]

Considering the law already dictates them as a sovereign nation, no, IT IS ON YOU to provide the proof proving otherwise considering they have been recognized up till now as a sovereign nation. You'd have a point if their passport was straight up denied the entire time they've been using it, but it's been fine until this year, and nothing has changed in the Iroquois nation or in the laws regarding how the U.S. views them, but how (so far) only the U.K. and Canada view them.

Stop trying to make him do your job for you because you can't do it yourself.

Why did the US government initially refuse to commit to their re-entry and then later give them accompaning forms for their "passports"?

[aduidarnenye]

Considering the law already dictates them as a sovereign nation, no, IT IS ON YOU to provide the proof proving otherwise considering they have been recognized up till now as a sovereign nation. You'd have a point if their passport was straight up denied the entire time they've been using it, but it's been fine until this year, and nothing has changed in the Iroquois nation or in the laws regarding how the U.S. views them, but how (so far) only the U.K. and Canada view them.

Stop trying to make him do your job for you because you can't do it yourself.

So you are saying that a sovereign nation is the same as separate country and that the US government absolutely recognises the land belonging to the Iroquois as not part of the territory of the United States of America?

[Cleverness]

So you are saying that a sovereign nation is the same as separate country and that the US government absolutely recognises the land belonging to the Iroquois as not part of the territory of the United States of America?

Clearly your trolling at this point or you really are dumb. Go look up what a native american sovereign nation is and the laws they are and aren't allowed to practice yourself, I refuse to educate you since it'll be a waste of time.

Why did the US government initially refuse to commit to their re-entry and then later give them accompaning forms for their "passports"?

You'd know if they read the 2 articles on this matter, if you haven't why bother posting?

1) Players have a dispute with a consulate over getting visas' to enter and the British consulate said, quoting the article released on the 13th, "British consulate informed the team that it would only issue visas to the team upon receiving written assurance from the United States government that the Iroquois had been granted clearance to travel on their own documents and would be allowed back into the United States."
2) Hilary gets them some re-entry permits as a proof that they can travel and re-enter.
3) Now the British consulate says "oh no, we want you to have passports now that we consider legitimate" after they went through the almost impossible task of getting the re-entry permits.

[Maaglin]

Clearly your trolling at this point or you really are dumb. Go look up what a native american sovereign nation is and the laws they are and aren't allowed to practice yourself, I refuse to educate you since it'll be a waste of time.



You'd know if they read the 2 articles on this matter, if you haven't why bother posting?

1) Players have a dispute with a consulate over getting visas' to enter and the British consulate said, quoting the article released on the 13th, "British consulate informed the team that it would only issue visas to the team upon receiving written assurance from the United States government that the Iroquois had been granted clearance to travel on their own documents and would be allowed back into the United States."
2) Hilary gets them some re-entry permits as a proof that they can travel and re-enter.
3) Now the British consulate says "oh no, we want you to have passports now that we consider legitimate" after they went through the almost impossible task of getting the re-entry permits.

Wrong. They were given the papers because the international law had changed, and the Indians either didn't know about it or didn't care enough to take action. So Clinton stepped in because it's minority issue and they are from her former representative state.

The state department refused to guarentee re-entry until Clinton stepped in. Why? Because the law had changed.

The re-entry paper was also a one-time deal. ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE EXPECTED TO TRAVEL ON OFFICIAL US PASSPORTS.

How hard is it to understand that the law was changed and lolpassports weren't going to be accepted any longer BY ANYONE IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE.

They were already given preferential treatment from one of the highest authorities in the government, and for no good reason other than through their own ignorance of changing international law. Our secretary of state has better things to do than cater to complete non-issues like this.

[Cleverness]

Wrong. They were given the papers because the international law had changed, and the Indians either didn't know about it or didn't care enough to take action. So Clinton stepped in because it's minority issue and they are from her former representative state.

The state department refused to guarentee re-entry until Clinton stepped in. Why? Because the law had changed.

How hard is it to understand that the law was changed and lolpassports weren't going to be accepted any longer BY ANYONE IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE.

They were already given preferential treatment from one of the highest authorities in the government, and for no good reason other than through their own ignorance of changing international law. Our secretary of state has better things to do than cater to complete non-issues like this.

I already know the law was changed in 2008, or rather, the law was always in place but heavily emphasized in 2008 when the State department passed down the new ruling. I've know since the 13th when this article was first posted, didn't feel like force feeding aduidarnenye the info since she can't do herself a favor and read an entire article.

That's not what I really care about. It's the fact that they're a sovereign nation and keep getting their rights restricted to the point where if they don't accept dual-citizenship(which again is not real dual-citizenship since the U.S. law will always supercede their tribal laws) they are fucked unless they open a casino or do like the Seneca tribe here in NY and piss everyone off. There's really no point in keeping them as a nation if you're gonna keep handcuffing EVERYTHING they can do as their own nation, it's a blatant method to undermine the entire Native American people who actually hold any sliver of their former pride.

But to reiterate, no, the papers were only given when they first went to get visas for entering Britain and last Friday the consulate said they need papers. Then after they finally get the papers, the consulate says fuck it and tells them they need U.S. passports now. It's beyond the point that they need U.S. passports, if that was the case why not say so IN THE BEGINNING. It's completely fucked up to tell them they need X and after getting X you say nevermind I want Y now or you can't go.

If the consulate said from the beginning that due to the statement from 2008 from the U.S. State Department they require a U.S. passport from them now, which they can easily acquire if they chose, that'd be the end of it and there'd be less room for arguing against the disrespect toward Native American rights, but that's obviously not what happened.

[aduidarnenye]

That's not what I really care about. It's the fact that they're a sovereign nation and keep getting their rights restricted to the point where if they don't accept dual-citizenship(which again is not real dual-citizenship since the U.S. law will always supercede their tribal laws) they are fucked unless they open a casino or do like the Seneca tribe here in NY and piss everyone off. There's really no point in keeping them as a nation if you're gonna keep handcuffing EVERYTHING they can do as their own nation, it's a blatant method to undermine the entire Native American people who actually hold any sliver of their former pride.

Why do you keep insisting that non-citizens should have rights like citizens?

If I travelled to the US I wouldn't have the rights of an American citizen. My husband is American and can't work in Canada because he doesn't have the rights of a Canadian citizen.

What exactly is so bad about having dual-citizenship and being pragmatic about international travel? Lots of people hold dual-citizenships of different countries and don't feel any pride issues. This was what I was working up to in earlier questions, but sadly you seem to believe that I don't already know the answers to the questions I asked.