Iroquois is a Country? Travelling on Iroquois Passport

[Cleverness]

Why do you keep insisting that non-citizens should have rights like citizens?

If I travelled to the US I wouldn't have the rights of an American citizen. My husband is American and can't work in Canada because he doesn't have the rights of a Canadian citizen.

What exactly is so bad about having dual-citizenship and being pragmatic about international travel? Lots of people hold dual-citizenships of different countries and don't feel any pride issues. This was what I was working up to in earlier questions, but sadly you seem to believe that I don't already know the answers to the questions I asked.

The fact that you think dual-citizenship between U.S./whoever and U.S./Native American is the same is completely wrong. If you have Dual citizenship from Canada and come to the U.S. you're no longer in your country and obviously follow U.S. laws, if you go back to Canada you obviously follow Canadian law. If a Native American goes to their reservation which is considered the land of a sovereign nation it's only governed under their law if the U.S. feels like it. And then if an issue comes up, like the whole jail thing again that happened in the 70's, the U.S. will go out of its way to further restrict what they can do. It's a bully system and not the same at all.

This isn't an issue of them not being a country, it's an issue that after murdering tons of their people, instead of trying to integrate them into our society like they did with the Africans after slavery(the word trying is being used loosely here since it took about 100 years for this statement to even come close to coming 100% true), they instead chose to isolate them and try to make it seem like their nations were on par with States when referring to the wording of the U.S. Constitution. But that's not even close to how they are really being represented and even if they don't like it, it's the only individuality they have left so they're stuck with it.

Could have easily been avoided if the government just initially said fuck it to the reservations thing.

[Maaglin]

I already know the law was changed in 2008, or rather, the law was always in place but heavily emphasized in 2008 when the State department passed down the new ruling. I've know since the 13th when this article was first posted, didn't feel like force feeding aduidarnenye the info since she can't do herself a favor and read an entire article.

That's not what I really care about. It's the fact that they're a sovereign nation and keep getting their rights restricted to the point where if they don't accept dual-citizenship(which again is not real dual-citizenship since the U.S. law will always supercede their tribal laws) they are fucked unless they open a casino or do like the Seneca tribe here in NY and piss everyone off. There's really no point in keeping them as a nation if you're gonna keep handcuffing EVERYTHING they can do as their own nation, it's a blatant method to undermine the entire Native American people who actually hold any sliver of their former pride.

But to reiterate, no, the papers were only given when they first went to get visas for entering Britain and last Friday the consulate said they need papers. Then after they finally get the papers, the consulate says fuck it and tells them they need U.S. passports now. It's beyond the point that they need U.S. passports, if that was the case why not say so IN THE BEGINNING. It's completely fucked up to tell them they need X and after getting X you say nevermind I want Y now or you can't go.

If the consulate said from the beginning that due to the statement from 2008 from the U.S. State Department they require a U.S. passport from them now, which they can easily acquire if they chose, that'd be the end of it and there'd be less room for arguing against the disrespect toward Native American rights, but that's obviously not what happened.

Then why do you keep claiming no laws were changed, like a retard?

If they can get their passports to meet the required security level of the international law, then I'm sure they will be accpeted once again. However, handwritten, polaroid crap won't fly.

It's not dual-citizenship. They are American citizens, period.

Clinton offered them US passports prior to them leaving. I would call that IN THE BEGINNING. She only issued the papers after they refused to accept her most generous offer because of their stupidity, err, I mean "pride".

The papers were then issued before they left, in the HOPE that Britian would let then in. It was never a guarentee (as our own government was guarenteeing re-entry either, prior to the last minute action from Clinton) and the news reports are misconstruing the information to imply that Britian said it would allow it, when that wasn't the case at all. The documents presented by the Indian team and associates DO NOT meet the elevated level of international law. There was no way Britian should have let them enter and they made the right decision to not allow it. People demand equality in this country for everyone, yet still expect minorities to get privledged treatment. Hell, it's hard to come by more privledged treatment then have the secretary of state come to your aid. And being able to spit on her offer and then still play the race card afterwards, is well, I would have to say a masterful stroke by the tribal "elders" there.

Fault clearly is on the side of the Indians. They knew the situation and circumstances prior. They refused to take any action on their own accord and refused help from the highest level of government. Shame on them for choosing to play the race card instead of focusing their efforts on getting their boys over there to compete.

[Darus Grey]

I take it then, that you're not going to answer the questions about sovereign nation compared to separate country and the US territory as defined by the US government?

I really was so hoping you'd enlighten me further with your boundless knowledge.

I did answer it, several times now, I even specifically called you out on the fact that you're too fucking stupid to even understand that I did, clearly I was right.

Not my job to spoon-feed you every time you can't keep up with an adult conversation.

That's your husband's job, though I imagine he's feeding you just so you can't talk for awhile.

Spoiler: show

My sympathies to him, really.

[Cleverness]

Then why do you keep claiming no laws were changed

I haven't read anything about UK laws being changed, saying there was a UK government change without providing any proof means nothing. The U.S. law has no real significance since they've NEVER been ok with the Native American passports, but other countries still accepted them since on the books they were a nation. Although they should really get some that don't look like a 5 year old did it.

And frankly it's all irrelevant since the UK consulate apparently had no issues with them at first using their own passports since originally they just wanted them to get proof that they can safely re-enter the US with them before issuing them visas, due to the 2008 thing that went down to further solidify that the U.S. won't recognize their passports, but still realizing that several countries in the world do.

If their passports weren't valid at all to begin with, why did the UK consulate give them the option that they can use them if they have permits to safely re-enter the U.S.? You still ignore answering this for obvious reasons.

[Skyylya]

Anyone else lose count on how many times the same people are going to say the exact same thing with a few words changed so they can try to win this retarded arguement?

[Cleverness]

Considering the OP still refuses to read the main point that was addressed on page...2 I think even after it's been repeated so many times, forever.

[Not not Mattaru]

Just for some perspective if you remove the Native American aspect. This is not an issue that only Native Americans deal with, but all pseudo-states and it is always an issue of external sovereignty.

Another example would be...like...the TDMR (Trans-Dniester Moldovan Republic), pseudo-state in Moldova that is tied more to Russia rather than Moldova and Europe. They have passports recognized by Russia and other sympathetic states but that is it. Luckily, they are on a border so they don't have to worry about going the Moldova to get back into TDMR.

Not sure if they have the passport issue as well but it is similar with those pseudo-states in Georgia that came up a couple years ago, Abkazia and South Ossetia.

[Cadsuane]

Just for some perspective if you remove the Native American aspect. This is not an issue that only Native Americans deal with, but all pseudo-states and it is always an issue of external sovereignty.

Another example would be...like...the TDMR (Trans-Dniester Moldovan Republic), pseudo-state in Moldova that is tied more to Russia rather than Moldova and Europe. They have passports recognized by Russia and other sympathetic states but that is it. Luckily, they are on a border so they don't have to worry about going the Moldova to get back into TDMR.

Not sure if they have the passport issue as well but it is similar with those pseudo-states in Georgia that came up a couple years ago, Abkazia and South Ossetia.

Fucking exactly. Framing this as a native rights issue is beyond disingenuous.

[Ksandra]

cad is breaking the forums.

j/k <3

[Maaglin]

I haven't read anything about UK laws being changed, saying there was a UK government change without providing any proof means nothing. The U.S. law has no real significance since they've NEVER been ok with the Native American passports, but other countries still accepted them since on the books they were a nation. Although they should really get some that don't look like a 5 year old did it.

And frankly it's all irrelevant since the UK consulate apparently had no issues with them at first using their own passports since originally they just wanted them to get proof that they can safely re-enter the US with them before issuing them visas, due to the 2008 thing that went down to further solidify that the U.S. won't recognize their passports, but still realizing that several countries in the world do.

If their passports weren't valid at all to begin with, why did the UK consulate give them the option that they can use them if they have permits to safely re-enter the U.S.? You still ignore answering this for obvious reasons.

International law wut?

courtesy vs. diplomatic obligation wut?

[Blackmagik]

When the United States assumed the role of protector of the tribes, it neither denied nor destroyed their sovereignty.” However, it is important to also note that individuals with U.S. citizenship are subject to all U.S. laws even if they have tribal membership as well, as determined in the Supreme Court case United States v. Nice (1916).

They are living in America, they are Native Americans, they follow the law within the country they live in.