Fantasy Football 2010: The leagues...Inquire inside for league openings

**Moss** · 2010-07-30 21:59

Originally Posted by Plow

20 man scoring system from last year

Spoiler: show

again we'll see what people want to do

I'll renew it as soon as I figure out how to ban miz

Other than things I have already mentioned disliking(comp/inc, bonus points), I don't like return yards since every KR is basically a free 20 yards.

I think getting rid of comp/inc and bringing the yards to standard level(25/passing, 10/rushing,receiving) would make a huge difference, the rest of the complaints are minor.

It's pretty much a black and white issue to me this point, I kind of just view everything as either standard or fucked with. I can deal with minor changes though if it means a competitive league with vigilant owners.

**Tyche** · 2010-07-30 22:15

Anyone want to do a mock draft on http://fantasyfootballcalculator.com?

**sekaran** · 2010-07-30 22:27

In for a money league if space is available.

**Gadritan** · 2010-07-30 22:37

Originally Posted by Plow

That's quite the argument you've made about how Darren Sproles isn't going to be that other guy contributing to the Chargers' passing offense.

Please, tell me more of your wonderful insight.

That was me

**Gadritan** · 2010-07-30 22:39

BG leages needz moar Cardiac Cats.

**octopus** · 2010-07-30 23:37

Originally Posted by Stiker

I was in as well (Irish Texans).

I was in BG West as well (laughing octopus)

**volcanicweather** · 2010-07-31 00:13

Originally Posted by Tyche

I understand the system fine, and on paper, it's alright. I just think it implements poorly when it translates. The average based scoring can be too damn quirky and the low yds/point makes for some reall weird scenarios. As I've said, the league is great and the competition is fantastic. I like the scoring system because of it's quirkiness, I wouldn't have came back for the third time if I didn't. I think of it like a good cheap beer. It can be fun as hell at times, just needs to be used in moderation.

ok then Tyche, if my scoring system is the "cheap beer" of scoring systems, then what's the "fine wine"? Surely I hope it isn't that system you posted the other day which doesn't seem to have any sort of logical explanation behind the numbers at all... I just love how you keep bashing and giving backhanded compliments to my system while failing to show me -specifically- what's wrong with it or even posting and trying to explain any system you like in comparison. That's all I want to see because right now I'm just seeing a guy who likes to complain and doesn't have anything to back it up.

**Plow** · 2010-07-31 00:14

Originally Posted by Moss

Other than things I have already mentioned disliking(comp/inc, bonus points), I don't like return yards since every KR is basically a free 20 yards.

Return yards are almost guaranteed to stay because the depth is necessary. At current levels you're looking at 250 return yards to match a 100 yard day, if we go to 10/10/25 we're talking 500.

Basically it's just an issue of there simply not being 40rb and 40wr that are going to predictably score anything at all every week.

I think getting rid of comp/inc and bringing the yards to standard level(25/passing, 10/rushing,receiving) would make a huge difference, the rest of the complaints are minor.

I'd be ok with making it more yardage heavy if people want, but you've got to understand what you're getting into there. In a 20 man league, if it's yardage heavy, the guys that get the couple studs are virtually untouchable. The person picking 3rd might get an 1800 yard back and a 1000 receiver, while the person picking 20th is going to end up with, if they're lucky, something like a 1000 yard back and a 1200 yd receiver. By the 3rd round 20th is picking someone that's 6th round material in most leagues. 60 points difference in your first 2 picks in a league that deep is huuuuuuuuge.

It's pretty much a black and white issue to me this point, I kind of just view everything as either standard or fucked with. I can deal with minor changes though if it means a competitive league with vigilant owners.

That's basically the idea, it's as close to standard as I personally think you can be other than the passing percentage (which I have no problem ditching) and still have a competitive league.

Like I said, despite all the bashing, the league stayed busy and was very competitive. Even though Volc talks about how easy he won, he was 4th in the regular season at 8-5. I came into the playoffs seeded 2nd at 9-4, and finished 8th, i.e. last of the people that made it.

The last 4 teams in the playoffs, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th, were all in at 7-6.

**Plow** · 2010-07-31 00:17

Originally Posted by Gadritan

That was me

That's the point heh, I was trying to talk about shit other than it, but tyche couldn't get off my nuts and decided to release the butthurt when he realized he completely missed what I was saying.

Originally Posted by volcanicweather

That was actually me, not Tyche, so don't hate the man.

Oh, it was several people, hence why I changed it. Like I said, I'm up for doing what the people in the league as a whole want. It is, after all, something we're doing for fun.

**Moss** · 2010-07-31 00:25

Originally Posted by Plow

Return yards are almost guaranteed to stay because the depth is necessary. At current levels you're looking at 250 return yards to match a 100 yard day, if we go to 10/10/25 we're talking 500.

Basically it's just an issue of there simply not being 40rb and 40wr that are going to predictably score anything at all every week.

I'd be ok with making it more yardage heavy if people want, but you've got to understand what you're getting into there. In a 20 man league, if it's yardage heavy, the guys that get the couple studs are virtually untouchable. The person picking 3rd might get an 1800 yard back and a 1000 receiver, while the person picking 20th is going to end up with, if they're lucky, something like a 1000 yard back and a 1200 yd receiver. By the 3rd round 20th is picking someone that's 6th round material in most leagues. 60 points difference in your first 2 picks in a league that deep is huuuuuuuuge.

That's basically the idea, it's as close to standard as I personally think you can be other than the passing percentage (which I have no problem ditching) and still have a competitive league.

Like I said, despite all the bashing, the league stayed busy and was very competitive. Even though Volc talks about how easy he won, he was 4th in the regular season at 8-5. I came into the playoffs seeded 2nd at 9-4, and finished 8th, i.e. last of the people that made it.

The last 4 teams in the playoffs, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th, were all in at 7-6.

I've played in big leagues with 14-18 owners before, but yeah a snake draft with that many teams does complicate things. I still don't mind the yardage counting that much personally, in the end it's still about hitting on your picks. As long as you get rid of the comp/inc I'm good with everything else.

**Plow** · 2010-07-31 00:38

What if we split the difference on yardage?

So it would look something like this:

Spoiler: show

lemme know what people think of that, I left the int at -1 to keep qb scoring from dropping too low, but that has the unfortunate side effect of not rewarding people that pick guys that don't turn it over

**Tyche** · 2010-07-31 00:50

Originally Posted by volcanicweather

ok then Tyche, if my scoring system is the "cheap beer" of scoring systems, then what's the "fine wine"? Surely I hope it isn't that system you posted the other day which doesn't seem to have any sort of logical explanation behind the numbers at all... I just love how you keep bashing and giving backhanded compliments to my system while failing to show me -specifically- what's wrong with it or even posting and trying to explain any system you like in comparison. That's all I want to see because right now I'm just seeing a guy who likes to complain and doesn't have anything to back it up.

I've posted pictures and given scenarios. Average based scoring can be fluky, especially when someone breaks off one long run and gets 15-20 points out of it, even if they don't score. And guess what, most fantasy league's don't have a lick of logic behind the scoring. 1 point for 10 yards is arbitrary, turnovers being -2 points is arbitrary. You can overthink the room, believe it or not.

example; a QB going for 15/30, 2TDs 0INT and 250 yards would net just under 16 points.
a RB breaks off one 70 yard run gets 17 points if he doesn't score.

Hell, everytime the QB throws the ball away, he loses a point. By the time a couple of passes are dropped, he throws a couple away...he just negated a TD because of things that aren't always in his control. There's a difference between making a bad throw and making a great football decision, but your scoring doesn't account for that, it punishes both. Up until this season, everytime he took a kneel, he lost (more than?) a point.

**Moss** · 2010-07-31 00:55

I like that better, but help help me understand your reasoning of it being more TD-heavy. I'm sure it's because of how deep the league is, but when you are relying on more unknown guys who aren't going to gain many yards, the TDs are naturally weighted heavily (even with the 25/10/10 system). I'm going to bed but tomorrow I will look at some [ast scores and teams from the big league I play in every year and see if I can learn anything useful.

**Plow** · 2010-07-31 01:31

Because it makes goal line guys worth having. If a guy scores 8 td's on 200 yards, that's going to score fairly average with 20/20/50. With 10/10/25, he's scoring below a back that runs 600 yards and doesn't score all year.

With 20/20/50, a thousand yard 6 td back is still going to outscore him by 30ish points, which is a lot when the average weekly team score is in the 50 point range.

**volcanicweather** · 2010-07-31 08:55

Originally Posted by Tyche

I've posted pictures and given scenarios. Average based scoring can be fluky, especially when someone breaks off one long run and gets 15-20 points out of it, even if they don't score. And guess what, most fantasy league's don't have a lick of logic behind the scoring. 1 point for 10 yards is arbitrary, turnovers being -2 points is arbitrary. You can overthink the room, believe it or not.

example; a QB going for 15/30, 2TDs 0INT and 250 yards would net just under 16 points.
a RB breaks off one 70 yard run gets 17 points if he doesn't score.

Hell, everytime the QB throws the ball away, he loses a point. By the time a couple of passes are dropped, he throws a couple away...he just negated a TD because of things that aren't always in his control. There's a difference between making a bad throw and making a great football decision, but your scoring doesn't account for that, it punishes both. Up until this season, everytime he took a kneel, he lost (more than?) a point.

LOL you just told me to "get the fuck out" of the thread a few pages ago for the 30 carries / 25 yards RB statement, now here you are isolating a a RB who has 1 carry for 70 yards, which happens about as frequently as the former. Do you know how many 70+ yard carries their were in the NFL last year? 12... CJ had 3 of them. The two seasons before that there were only 9 and 7 looking quickly. There are 512 games in a season so the probability of a 70+ yard run even happening in a game over the past three seasons (1536 games) combined is a measly 1.8%. Explain to me why I should revise my entire scoring system to accommodate for something that happens less than 2% of the time which you are blowing way out of proportion anyways?

In regards to QBs losing point from incomplete passes.... again Tyche... you're looking at one slice of the pie instead of the entire thing and attempting to draw a conclusion. The 1 point for every 11 yards passing is drawn primarily from the yard per completion stat where there are about 24-25 QBs who average more than that so it's a very generous baseline (Rivers led the league last year with 13.4) which gives good QBs a few "bonus" points per game to factor in for dropped passes, throwaways, etc. If there was a way for dropped passes to equal 0 instead of -1 in any scoring system I'd be all over it but there isn't.

No shit most fantasy scoring systems don't have a lick of logic behind them. That's my entire point! But like I already said I don't understand at all why you're calling my system "cheap beer" and you have yet to show me anything even close to resembling a "fine wine" scoring system in comparison.

**Tyche** · 2010-07-31 09:09

It was an example, which is what you asked for, not the basis of the argument. YOu can go down as far as a 25 yard run being equal to a passing TD.

As far as a fine wine, I think you misunderstood the analogy...I was simply stating that it's something fun to play with, but not something I'd want to use exclusively. I understand you put a lot of thought into the stats and numbers of it, but sorry, I don't think it translates well. It's an opinion of playing 2 years in the system.

**Tyche** · 2010-07-31 09:25

How about I just concede this: Your league is different. Very different. I've played in probably 20-30 leagues that use standard or a somewhat varied standard system. Yours is far away from either of those. In context, it's fine, but it's very odd in comparison to the norm and makes for very odd situations. Maybe if I played in a league with that system 30 times as opposed to twice, I would feel different. The logic is fine, as I've stated, I just think it translates poorly (or entirely different if you want to read it that way) than what people are used to. You've made a lot of changes to it in 2 years that people have complained about. Kudos to that.

**volcanicweather** · 2010-07-31 09:30

Originally Posted by Tyche

It was an example, which is what you asked for, not the basis of the argument. YOu can go down as far as a 25 yard run being equal to a passing TD.

As far as a fine wine, I think you misunderstood the analogy...I was simply stating that it's something fun to play with, but not something I'd want to use exclusively. I understand you put a lot of thought into the stats and numbers of it, but sorry, I don't think it translates well. It's an opinion of playing 2 years in the system.

Except no RB averages 25 yards a carry and the more the RB carries the ball the larger the sample size or carries the scoring system has to draw from and the more it evens out the outlier yardage amounts (such as 25)... it's stats 101 man. Next argument?

You're entitled to your opinion and that's fine, but I feel you go a little far saying stuff like this...

For the ultimate WHAT THE FUCK, i can post Volcanic's epic scoring system

and by epic, i mean EPIC

...when you won't / can't show me a showing system you think "translates well" or however you want to put it. Because I'm all for learning and drawing from other scoring systems which make sense because that's how my system has evolved over the years.

**Chun Liroy** · 2010-07-31 09:37

Oh and is there any room for me in a non-money league? Sent the money tyche. And is that the final date for the draft? I'm actually flying back to school that day lol.

**Tyche** · 2010-07-31 09:37

No, they don't but in a single game, they build on that. The statistical outliers effect single games more heavily than a standard system. Where as a 50 yard breakout will get 5 points in a standard system, it gets 12 in yours, it's a little easier to overcome a 5 point outlier than a 12 point one. The RB can continue to build points off that. As the season and games progress, the YPC will level out, and it'll be unnoticeable over the course, but in that game, it had a marked impact.

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