FFXIV Random Speculation/Question thread V: No one told me beta would have problems in it

[Suirin]

Agreed, in a general sense.
And there is quite a few other dilemmas they will have to solve, too.
Maybe I'm a little slow, but it just appeared to me that a lot about FFXIV is more boldly experimental than I originally realized.

Free combination of abilities? Commonplace in an offline-RPG because there noone cares whether you can use your Super-Ninja-Summoner-Timemage to backstab the Final Boss with Titan in an infinite Timeloop or not. But in a MMORPG? - Happy balancing!

No "traditional" Leveling? - well, now we have two parallel and independent level systems. I wonder whether that is what they originally had in mind. Frankly, I fail to see the benefits behind the convolusion.

No hourlong grind? Guildleaves are a nice concept with a few new twists (scalable difficulty etc.). Let's hope it really translates into "no grind".

Casual and hardcore on cross-region cross-platform servers? Hui-hui.

SE, there's a lot of promises you'll have to live up to...

[Destinye]

Guidleves aren't a leveling system.

[Hyan]

Grind is quite crucial for MMO's success.

The challenge is to hide it behind the gameplay, and usually social interaction is a good way to hide it too. Gameplay alone can rarely do the trick, because single player games/online RPG's can do it much better. However, just like how poker is more fun in a group than "alone", same applies to MMO's imo.

When gameplay is not good enough, social interaction can handle the rest. That's why I think focusing solely on gameplay can be a double edged sword.

As far as XIV goes, I think it's biggest threat is that too much convenience is sacrificed for interaction.

[Lithiani]

So, if there are better analogies, I apologize but: your argument seems to be very similar to the whole arc of CoP. At first people complained about the difficulty, but there was a change, slowly but surely, to people appreciating it. It happened as people achieved things it the expansion, and eventually almost everyone did, so eventually everyone loved it.

There was frustration and annoyance and losing the Promys or...what Bahamut? I got sea pretty early so I really don't remember, but that was a pain, right? And obviously Omega and Ultima. But there was a sense of accomplishment when you first set foot in Lufaise or Sea that was pretty unrivaled throughout the rest of the game. SE could do a lot worse than have some type of system like that. Sure, there would be a lot of complaints at the beginning, but at the end, a lot of appreciation.

I loved CoP from the get go. The biggest problem with it was organising parties to go do it.

S-Es approach to endgames in XI was excellent. By the point at which I left the game, there were several different scale endgames to choose from, which was a really adaptive way to handle your playerbase. Everything from grand scale 64 man Dynamis (one of my fondest memories of XI is our full 64 man D-Xarca to beat up the Relic Horn for Arianna), to small party based was (in theory) in there. I hope they do more of this, and avoid the temptation to obsolete their own content.

[Hyan]

What I'm most excited about is to see how the stat allocation system will shape up, because I honestly can't imagine it working with any other character progression mechanics than the one SE uses, and even then there's a big risk because as far as I know no one has ever tried to do it this way before.

It's awesome that they experiment with different systems and concepts. You either love or hate it.

[mundie]

I'm kind of sad they didn't keep the experience chain concept. I thought it was a really nice extra mechanic which rewarded you for doing well, made you take risks, and generally kept the pace up.

What I'm most excited about is to see how the stat allocation system will shape up, because I honestly can't imagine it working with any other character progression mechanics than the one SE uses, and even then there's a big risk because as far as I know no one has ever tried to do it this way before.

I'm still not entirely sure about that system, sure it lets you truly customize your character at that level, and I suppose that's what they want us to do this time, make us feel special. I could see it being an annoyance later on when you need to reallocate to change to another class, but not having played with a fully working system, it's a little hard to dismiss it as crap or hail it as great at this point.

[Hyan]

I think it wouldn't work in this game, at least without modifying the concept quite a bit.

They can still implement something like it later on though. If I remember right exp chains came like 3 months-half a year after XI went live too.

[Suirin]

@Destinye
Yes, I know they are not on the surface. But don't tell me you don't get any EXP while doing them. that's what Hyan (presumably) tried to point out when he said "the challenge is to hide it behind the gameplay". Looks like their approach worked for you ^.^/

[mundie]

I think it wouldn't work in this game, at least without modifying the concept quite a bit.

They can still implement something like it later on though. If I remember right exp chains came like 3 months-half a year after XI went live too.

Yeah I was trying to conceptualize it within the current confines. I'm thinking it could be a flat skill gain bonus that increases with each kill to offset the random nature of current skill gains.

Edit:

I guess they're not really trying to push 'the grind' again, but I don't think can eliminate it completely, so they might as well make it more interesting.

[Loaar]

@Destinye
Yes, I know they are not on the surface. But don't tell me you don't get any EXP while doing them. that's what Hyan (presumably) tried to point out when he said "the challenge is to hide it behind the gameplay". Looks like their approach worked for you ^.^/

Actually, unless your soloing or duoing them, or your a mage spamming cure, you get so little class skill from them that you may as well be getting nothing.

EDIT: And if you are soloing them, then you have maybe an hours worth of leves every 2 days, so its not a viable option.

Of course, SE may adjust that, but right now, they Destinye is correct in that they aren't useful for leveling.

Even in the alpha, when you could get new leves 24 times more often, killing normal mobs was still more worthwhile for leveling.

They are however, the best way so far to earn money and items.

[BlackheartX]

I wish to join a JP server because they will tell me where to find pokey.

That treacherous fat fuck.

[BlackheartX]

I've merited with plenty of people that had no fucking clue, so that point isn't valid.

I still prefer a story driven leveling system where your main focus is not your exp gauge. Running around a small area, be it solo or in a group, and killing mobs just for the sake of leveling is outdated. I rather it be hidden well in an epic quest line that doesn't feel like you're leveling and contributes to the main story.

You sir are planning on playing the wrong game. ( I need your time machine to find an example of such a game)

[Hyan]

I seriously think SE will nerf normal mobs a bit as far as EXP goes, while buffing GL's.

The game mechanics don't quite work if what Destinye says is the case. Mages, for example, are quite dependent on the Aetherytes and the no MP limitation is, at least in my opinion, linked to the GL mechanics very closely.

[BlackheartX]

Agreed, in a general sense.
And there is quite a few other dilemmas they will have to solve, too.
Maybe I'm a little slow, but it just appeared to me that a lot about FFXIV is more boldly experimental than I originally realized.

Free combination of abilities? Commonplace in an offline-RPG because there noone cares whether you can use your Super-Ninja-Summoner-Timemage to backstab the Final Boss with Titan in an infinite Timeloop or not. But in a MMORPG? - Happy balancing!

No "traditional" Leveling? - well, now we have two parallel and independent level systems. I wonder whether that is what they originally had in mind. Frankly, I fail to see the benefits behind the convolusion.

No hourlong grind? Guildleaves are a nice concept with a few new twists (scalable difficulty etc.). Let's hope it really translates into "no grind".

Casual and hardcore on cross-region cross-platform servers? Hui-hui.

SE, there's a lot of promises you'll have to live up to...

There's no real evidence of these things being radically new as you make them sound. I level up and my weaponskill levels up so I can use new abilities, how is that remotely different from skillups? Now if your talking about cross-class abilities that statement might have more merit but not much more. To the second bolded statement I promise you it won't.

@Partying
If you're arbitrarily forced to group with people for everything I'd like to see more small parties of 2-4 be able to sufficiently grind.

[Hyan]

They're not revolutionary, but still different enough that there's no way of knowing how it'll end up.

It's more than the sum of it's parts, in other words.

[Suirin]

Yep.
Of course, we had similar ideas before. But tell me of a scenario where your "Job Ability Level" (the sum of your abilities - not just some weaponskills) and your "Physical Level" had a chance to be as far apart in XI as in XIV. But if you consider this not even "remotely different", well - I guess it's a matter of perspective from here on.

Also, (pretty much) free combination of skills is big news to me; especially as the more limited concept of subjobs has already proven to be a pretty unstable bull to predict and ride, if you get my drift (Utsusemi!). But again, if you consider this to have "not much more merit" - ok with me. It's all just personal opinion.

On the third one: yes. There will be grinding. I just hope they manage to cover it up well. Personally, I loved the way I had to "grind" with other people in XI. After all, I was there for the social aspect of the game anyway. (Guess that makes me a heretic, hahaha!)

[Sephiroth]

The biggest social aspect I'm looking forward to is being able to EXP well with a range of party sizes from 2 to 15. Once you got to Valkurm in XI it was a pain to EXP with any less than 6 people and it was never good to party with more than 6. It sounds like they're making a party system that won't be a hassle or annoying to work with.

[BlackheartX]

Yep.
Of course, we had similar ideas before. But tell me of a scenario where your "Job Ability Level" (the sum of your abilities - not just some weaponskills) and your "Physical Level" had a chance to be as far apart in XI as in XIV. But if you consider this not even "remotely different", well - I guess it's a matter of perspective from here on.

Also, (pretty much) free combination of skills is big news to me; especially as the more limited concept of subjobs has already proven to be a pretty unstable bull to predict and ride, if you get my drift (Utsusemi!). But again, if you consider this to have "not much more merit" - ok with me. It's all just personal opinion.

On the third one: yes. There will be grinding. I just hope they manage to cover it up well. Personally, I loved the way I had to "grind" with other people in XI. After all, I was there for the social aspect of the game anyway. (Guess that makes me a heretic, hahaha!)

Yeah it is Opinion, as is everything on this forum. I'm just saying I don't see having the ability to equip weaponskills from other jobs as being to far removed from subjobs albeit you can equip more of them this time around. Also as for the scenario part not exactly sure what you mean with that question but my guess is your talking about something like someone being able to be a lv1 THF and learn Flee because of some skill counter vs it being based on your level?... As for the third thing, people like what they like and w/e the majority will put up with will most likely be the norm. However many things can be made more accessible for different play styles. Any MMO that brands itself with the mentality of "THIS OR GTFO" is going to either fail or be very stagnant in terms of subscriber base and I think SE is slightly aware of that.
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[LD]

So most of your 'friends' were like that? Do you hate everyone you play with?

Of course I sometimes partied with people I didn't like, but as far as making friends go I didn't think of it as some goddamn business to get my next epix.

What the hell is wrong with you?

I tried to tl;dr this as much as possible. I can't one line everything.

Ok, this went from a sociological discussion to a value judgement real quick, buddy.
I didn't say that there was anything wrong with you just because you believe MMOs are strictly about the friendship (wait, did I?).

I didn't hate everyone I came into contact with, I just didn't like everyone. Like and Hate are active, being apathetic is passive. I don't like surrounding myself with people I feel little or nothing for. Why should I?

When I talk about it being business-like, I don't mean everyone is this scheming asshole out to get phat loot (though that should be the end result). I mean they're paying something to continue playing the game: People unhappy in their LS or PT paying with time and and contentment because otherwise they'd be cut off from content.

I see MMOs as games first and social platforms second, so any arbitrary barrier to gameplay is poor design in my opinion. Making social connects is part of it, of course, but you can't advocate some social experiences and ignore or decry others. If I only wanna have 1 friend and ignore everyone else, that should be social enough.


ANYWAY.
As long as I don't have to wait on leves to solo and there isn't too large a gulf in gear from solo to PT to endgame (in terms of stats needed, not in stats given), FFXIV won't be any more or less grindy than another MMO and will work out fine.

[Balphas]

Right now, we're all waiting to see what kind of solo content will be available outside of the guild leves. For the most part, all battlecraft leaves are pretty much "Kill X amount of Y mobs". Then there's some leaves to gather x amount of y (as a disciple of the land), and craft x amount of y (disciple of the hand). Basically, it just gives a simple context to what you'd be doing anyway to advance in the game. There's a few leaves with kill an a certain NM, but basically, all of the leaves are things you did in FFXI, with the difference that most of them are instanced when taking the leaves, and they offer additional rewards/gil aside from the actual rewards you'd get normally from performing the task.

Unless Square-Enix adds some more in-depth quest system, like World of Warcraft, or got some other kind of system that gives you chance to advance in the game without just grinding mobs things will indeed look dire. They will probably focus on improving the grouping situation, increasing incentive and rewards for doing it. Like Hyan mentioned earlier in the thread, social interaction is a reward in itself, and really does add to the enjoyment of the game. Just as in FFXI, that is one way to ease up on the drudger of leveling up a class from scratch, but this time around the option for solo will also be available as you wait to group up, or just have a limited time to play.