The most easily de-railable topic on the internet.

[wagon]

There will never be perfect equality between the two sexes when comes to professional pay/compensation. However, there are drawback for being male so i think male and female are more or less equal, all things considered. To quote a few from Thomas Sowell's "Economics Facts and Fallacies",

1. Women have a longer life expectancy (In the US, women live on average 5 years longer than men. It also holds true universally across the globe.)
2. The life of a male is much more hazardous (higher probabilities for fatalities and accidents); people who die from work related accidents are disproportionately male, think miners, loggers, and fishermen. If you're a black male in the US, it's more likely for you to be in prison than in college. And if you're a black male on another continent, well, you're even worse off.
3. Men are so blatantly fucked over in divorce/child custody court that it demands no further explanation or elaboration
4. People are much more lenient towards women when they take off from work for family/child related matters, I have yet seen the same standard applicable to men
5. etc..

The best explanation as to why women are paid less because many take years off from work to have children and raise a family. As a result, they are not as experienced or career oriented as men are at the same age and with a similar background. It's not necessarily discrimination, but more of a choice that women made. Some may argue that passe social, societal norms force women to make such a choice. I'd rebuke that these norms originate from something much more fundamental, biological -- that only women can bear children -- a fact which ultimately none of us can do much about.

tldr, it's biological, the two sexes both have their roles to play so harden the fuck up

[Cadsuane]

I want to write a post for this thread very badly, since this is an excellent topic for general, but I'm drunk and I don't want to fuck up a debut post, and by tomorrow it'll be pages long and whatever I write will be lost in obscurity.

[Weiing]

@wagon: short version-No.

edit: Though I'll respect your opinion, but I just don't want to go raging and respectfully disagree.

[wagon]

@wagon: short version-No.

Stop being a women and tell me what you disagree with

[archibaldcrane]

1. Women have a longer life expectancy (In the US, women live on average 5 years longer than men. It also holds true universally across the globe.)
2. The life of a male is much more hazardous (higher probabilities for fatalities and accidents); people who die from work related accidents are disproportionately male, think miners, loggers, and fishermen. If you're a black male in the US, it's more likely for you to be in prison than in college. And if you're a black male on another continent, well, you're even worse off.
3. Men are so blatantly fucked over in divorce/child custody court that it demands no further explanation or elaboration
4. People are much more lenient towards women when they take off from work for family/child related matters, I have yet seen the same standard applicable to men

@wagon: short version-No.

Which part?

[Brutala]

Women have the privilege to QQ, play the victim and make everything sound far worse than it is without having their femininity called into question.

-Stop fucking caring about what others think and expect. This includes religions.
-Cut your hair if it's such a chore to wash and groom.
-Don't wear make-up. Wear normal clothes. You're the ones buying all this fashion shit you don't need, and now the industry is starting to target stupid men too. /sigh
-Play some sports. Don't be scared of gaining even the slightest bit of muscle mass. Be loud or w/e if you want. You can't claim men have a monopoly on fun if you're the one labeling it as a male activity.
-You won't have to worry about what people think about your tits and ass if you don't deliberately dress to show as much of them as possible.
-Get a gun, knife, pepper spray or something and learn to use them if you think the whole world is out to rape you.
-Leave your god damn boyfriend/husband for good the FIRST time he beats you.
-Generally, if sexual harassment is just words, it's a compliment. If it's anything more, there's pepper spray.

There, I just solved most of the horse shit these "privileges" were reverse-complaining about.

As has already been pointed out, all these "privileges" connected with occupation could be said of women depending on the occupation. Her best point is women having lower wages in many occupations or entire societies.

13 is a lie. The media will spit on anyone regardless of gender if they can dig something up (or if they're a particularly shitty news company, they'll just make something up),

16 is a lie. She needed encouragement to go out and have fun when she was a kid and didn't want it on her own?! Bullshit. What she should be complaining about is parents buying balls, toy guns and swords for boys and barbie dolls and plastic tea sets for girls.

I don't understand 17. What's wrong with looking for heroes? So what if male heroes were the mainstream standard? Mainstream is usually shit anyway.

35 is a valid point. Can't fix biology, though.

42 made my eye twitch. Pressure to be thin. Pressure. God forbid that you want to look or feel healthy out of your own free will.

[Weiing]

There will never be perfect equality between the two sexes when comes to professional pay/compensation. However, there are drawback for being male so i think male and female are more or less equal, all things considered. To quote a few from Thomas Sowell's "Economics Facts and Fallacies",


The best explanation as to why women are paid less because many take years off from work to have children and raise a family. As a result, they are not as experienced or career oriented as men are at the same age and with a similar background. It's not necessarily discrimination, but more of a choice that women made. Some may argue that passe social, societal norms force women to make such a choice. I'd rebuke that these norms originate from something much more fundamental, biological -- that only women can bear children -- a fact which ultimately none of us can do much about.

tldr, it's biological, the two sexes both have their roles to play so harden the fuck up

First I put as a side note that yes, like I've said, men have things they are being unfairly discriminated against. However, it is a fallacy to think that men and women are equal because both genders have some "drawbacks" and biases against them. It's just that women have been repressed longer than men and have more biases/assumptions/stereotypes/discrimination against them. The things that were listed is only marginally, fractionally, as much as the inequalities with women still in this day and age.


Women may be paid less than men on average because they may take time off for children. It may not have been the woman's choice to take time off to take care of the child, it may have been due to necessity. Even if it wasn't due to necessity, it's because it's just what's expected of the woman. "Oh you're pregnant? K, you'll take time off, perhaps abandon your career dreams forever. Just become a housewife, isn't that what all girls want anyway?"
I don't think it's a fair assumption to say that it is most likely their choice. And if it was, how much of it was actually their choice or just how they were brought up? They buy into to cultural norms of women being expected to be the primary caregiver.

Ugh... I don't know if that made any sense. I'm all flustered. Must be that time of the month? No, no it's not.

And for #2, I think that is more of the variable of SES that may contribute to that than just being male.
#4 - for US, yes.

Edit:
I thought men would love thinking they had all the privilege? What's with all this aversion to it? And you guys playing victims just the same.

[Tristam]

I stand corrected, should get funny now.

edit: For #4 and to add to what Wei said, I would argue that while women do get more maternity leave, the marital/child status of a women comes into play during a hiring process, as in "Will we have to let her leave for xxx amount of time to take care of her family, and can we assume that she will even return once she decides to start a family?"

This situation simply does not apply to males. That's what privilege means, there are situations and scenarios that apply differently for the sexes, and in general the benefits of wealth, freedom, and social status apply preferentially to males. Just because one or two statistics favor women, (women in porn make more than men), doesn't mean that privilege doesn't exist in society IN GENERAL. I think that the fierce rejection common among white males in particular comes from the idea that noone wants to think that life is anything but a meritocracy. And to accept the possibility that you are at least partially a product of the opportunities and connections that are available to you people take as an insult against their ability. However, I would think that the only thing stupider than not acknowledging our own advantages is not making use of them.

You don't have to feel white male guilt to acknowledge privilege exists. Most of us really can't do much about it, even if we were the staunchest white male feminist there was. But one day one of us might be in a position of power, and acknowledging our own privilege might help us in making decisions that help break apart the "old boys club" in whatever field we are in.

[archibaldcrane]

And if it was, how much of it was actually their choice or just how they were brought up? They buy into to cultural norms of women being expected to be the primary caregiver.

This is, simply, a cop-out. You choose to have kids. Birth control exists and is in varied plentiful forms. Abortion exists and is legal.

If you haven't discussed with your partner how to deal with children after they are born, you are a retard. This is not a gender-specific issue. If the choice you make after discussing with your partner is based on cultural norms...

It's still a choice. "Just how I was brought up" doesn't remove the decision making capability from your hands. This is some anti-feminist bullshit, the idea that women are incapable of making decisions and just do what is expected of them.

[Mojo]

Women may be paid less than men on average because they may take time off for children. It may not have been the woman's choice to take time off to take care of the child, it may have been due to necessity. Even if it wasn't due to necessity, it's because it's just what's expected of the woman. "Oh you're pregnant? K, you'll take time off, perhaps abandon your career dreams forever. Just become a housewife, isn't that what all girls want anyway?"
I don't think it's a fair assumption to say that it is most likely their choice. And if it was, how much of it was actually their choice or just how they were brought up? They buy into to cultural norms of women being expected to be the primary caregiver.

So you're blaming society for the fact that women get pregnant and have to take time off? You should probably be blaming god instead, it makes more sense.

[Mojo]

This is, simply, a cop-out. You choose to have kids. Birth control exists and is in varied plentiful forms. Abortion exists and is legal.

If you haven't discussed with your partner how to deal with children after they are born, you are a retard. This is not a gender-specific issue. If the choice you make after discussing with your partner is based on cultural norms...

It's still a choice. "Just how I was brought up" doesn't remove the decision making capability from your hands. This is some anti-feminist bullshit, the idea that women are incapable of making decisions and just do what is expected of them.

Blatant discrimination. Pregnancy is closer to a responsibility (or even a burden), not a choice.

[wagon]

First I put as a side note that yes, like I've said, men have things they are being unfairly discriminated against. However, it is a fallacy to think that men and women are equal because both genders have some "drawbacks" and biases against them. It's just that women have been repressed longer than men and have more biases/assumptions/stereotypes/discrimination against them. The things that were listed is only marginally, fractionally, as much as the inequalities with women still in this day and age.


Women may be paid less than men on average because they may take time off for children. It may not have been the woman's choice to take time off to take care of the child, it may have been due to necessity. Even if it wasn't due to necessity, it's because it's just what's expected of the woman. "Oh you're pregnant? K, you'll take time off, perhaps abandon your career dreams forever. Just become a housewife, isn't that what all girls want anyway?"
I don't think it's a fair assumption to say that it is most likely their choice. And if it was, how much of it was actually their choice or just how they were brought up? They buy into to cultural norms of women being expected to be the primary caregiver.

Ugh... I don't know if that made any sense. I'm all flustered. Must be that time of the month? No, no it's not.

And for #2, I think that is more of the variable of SES that may contribute to that than just being male.
#4 - for US, yes.

Edit:
I thought men would love thinking they had all the privilege? What's with all this aversion to it? And you guys playing victims just the same.

My contention is not whether women are paid less but why. I acknowledged that they are paid less on average and argued that not all of it can be attributed to discrimination. It could be that guys get paid more because they take more risks, it would explain the work related deaths. It's definitely more professionally acceptable for a married man to work long hours or over time compared to a married woman. Plus, pay really isn't everything, there are plenty of social disadvantages of being a male as I have talked about before. Most guys buy girls drinks, dinner, movies, etc during courtship, perhaps that's why we need the extra pay lol

You may be the exception to the rule but too many women that I know voluntarily (by choice), if not obsessively, yearn for marriage and family. I don't know any guys forcing their wives to have kids unwillingly, I am sure there are but it's rare. Like I said, it's biological -- past mid 20s, women are genetically "programed" to think about raising a family. Women have more control over their maternity than you think.

I haven't heard of any guy who plays victim and blames his wife for failures.

[Tristam]

This is, simply, a cop-out. You choose to have kids. Birth control exists and is in varied plentiful forms. Abortion exists and is legal.

If you haven't discussed with your partner how to deal with children after they are born, you are a retard. This is not a gender-specific issue. If the choice you make after discussing with your partner is based on cultural norms...

It's still a choice. "Just how I was brought up" doesn't remove the decision making capability from your hands. This is some anti-feminist bullshit, the idea that women are incapable of making decisions and just do what is expected of them.

Having kids doesn't affect the sexes equally. One undergoes what is essentially a surgery, the other is viewed as a champion just for being there.

[Weiing]

It's not that I'm blaming women for getting pregnant. It's the assumption that it's the woman who has to take time off to be the primary caregiver. Yes, biologically the female is the one who bears that child in the womb. However, not all species of animals have the females take care of the child after its born. So when partners have the "talk", it's almost expected for the woman to take time off, and perhaps abandon their career all together.

Of course, there are men now who are becoming the primary caregiver and the woman becoming the breadwinner. It's a shifting paradigm, and one I welcome. However, even now, some may view stay-at-home dads weird.

But there are points made other than the child-raising aspect of things...

[Weiing]

You may be the exception to the rule but too many women that I know voluntarily (by choice), if not obsessively, talk about marriage and family. I don't know any guys forcing their wives to have kids unwillingly, I am sure there are but it's rare. Like I said, it's biological -- past mid 20s, women are genetically "programed" to think about raising a family. Women have more control over their maternity than you think.

I haven't heard of any guy who plays victim and blames his wife for failures.

See? Right there? It's the assumption that women are biologically programmed to want to have children and want a family. That's kind of biased right there.

Also, I'm not talking about men playing victim and blaming their wife. I'm talking about you guys saying "Oh but...look at the things men have to put up with. Paying child support! Women are more favored in *certain* fields/jobs! But look at this...and that...etc" Like I've said, there are certain gender inequalities for men. However, the list for women is longer. Why can't you guys at least acknowledge the fact that you guys have certain unspoken, deeply entrenched privileges that women don't have? Man up and own up. I can at least man up and own up to the fact that there are some female privileges (that only recently emerged) that put men at a disadvantage.

[Komm Suesser Tod]

See? Right there? It's the assumption that women are biologically programmed to want to have children and want a family. That's kind of biased right there.

Also, I'm not talking about men playing victim and blaming their wife. I'm talking about you guys saying "Oh but...look at the things men have to put up with. Paying child support! Women are more favored in *certain* fields/jobs! But look at this...and that...etc" Like I've said, there are certain gender inequalities for men. However, the list for women is longer. Why can't you guys at least acknowledge the fact that you guys have certain unspoken, deeply entrenched privileges that women don't have? Man up and own up. I can at least man up and own up to the fact that there are some female privileges (that only recently emerged) that put men at a disadvantage.

Biased? It's not an issue of biased, it's an issue of basic biological function. Men are predisposed to stick their dicks in things, and women are equally predisposed to having children. This is how a species survives before it develops society and culture and all that, a built in urge to make more of you.

[Tristam]

Men don't have an urge to get married and have children? Maybe think you might be arguing from intuition? Or perhaps that this is a symptom of your privilege?

[Mojo]

Assuming that men and women should be equal caregivers is biased towards equality. I know that sounds retarded, but it's true. Men and women are not the same. Women are programmed to be the primary caregivers, that's just the way it is.

[wagon]

Biased? It's not an issue of biased, it's an issue of basic biological function. Men are predisposed to stick their dicks in things, and women are equally predisposed to having children. This is how a species survives before it develops society and culture and all that, a built in urge to make more of you.

^ spot on

[Caiti]

Assuming that men and women should be equal caregivers is biased towards equality. I know that sounds retarded, but it's true. Men and women are not the same. Women are programmed to be the primary caregivers, that's just the way it is.

I am curious, what is your proof for saying women are "programmed" to be caregivers? Saying it's just the way it is isn't a solid statement.