Remember that whole "Prop 8" thing? Yeah...

[Ksandra]

Turkey is a secular State, as is Egypt, Pakistan, and as was Iraq. The only explicitly religious State in the region is Iran. You're confusing two different things. The is a difference between a religious State and a State that occasionally acts in a religious manner because its constituents are very religious.

On the Egypt side, I at least understand what Khalil is trying to say. My family's churches there are covered in barricades to make sure people aren't shot during mass. My aunt who is brutally beaten by her husband cannot get a divorce because Muslims don't allow it (her husband is Muslim). The women are shunned into covering themselves and wearing black the rest of their life when widowed because of Muslim beliefs. If you don't you'll get beaten up basically. My younger cousins are constantly being beaten up in school because they are christian.

Now, you are right in that none of the laws enforce this to happen, but the government does nothing to stop it. The schools do not stop or punish the kids for beating up Christians. No one would stand up for my aunt against her abusive husband in court, because she is christian and he is Muslim.

Basically, they may not be a Muslim state, but if you are not Muslim, the government turns it's eyes away from you and lets their people do whatever they want. And it really hasn't changed since when my dad was little (he is over 70). This is what separates them from the way things are run in places like the US and Canada. Which I'm guessing is what Khalil was trying to suggest.

[Khalil]

Turkey is a secular State, as is Egypt, Pakistan, and as was Iraq. The only explicitly religious State in the region is Iran. You're confusing two different things. The is a difference between a religious State and a State that occasionally acts in a religious manner because its constituents are very religious. Furthermore, Turkey has a strong separation between religion and State as established by its founding by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Turkey's problems with Kurds are of a different element and no different from the various ethnic conflicts throughout the world. Meaning, there is nothing particularly "middle eastern" about the Turkish-Kurdish conflict. If by freedom you mean democracy, that exists in Turkey, among others, and is well enforced, and if by freedom you mean personal freedoms, then that exists to some extent in plenty of States in the Middle East, again, particularly Turkey.

I get the feeling you don't know much about the Middle East.

I do apologize for Turkey. I just noticed now that they had a secular government. Ma bad.

In my post of there lacking freedom of religion to Saudi Arabia. Other countries where they do allow freedom of religion but their constitution states that Islam is the official religion are UAE, Yemen, Oman, Jordan. One such country requires its president to be muslim before even taking office and that would be Syria. Also, in the countries provided above conversing from Islam to any other religion is punishable by death, although I'm not entirely sure if that's even enforced, same as oral sex prohibited in Florida.

What I hate the most about most Middle East countries is that their legislature is derived from Sharia law, which have questionable laws.

[Kuya]

On the Egypt side, I at least understand what Khalil is trying to say. My family's churches there are covered in barricades to make sure people aren't shot during mass. My aunt who is brutally beaten by her husband cannot get a divorce because Muslims don't allow it (her husband is Muslim). The women are shunned into covering themselves and wearing black the rest of their life when widowed because of Muslim beliefs. If you don't you'll get beaten up basically. My younger cousins are constantly being beaten up in school because they are christian.

Now, you are right in that none of the laws enforce this to happen, but the government does nothing to stop it. The schools do not stop or punish the kids for beating up Christians. No one would stand up for my aunt against her abusive husband in court, because she is christian and he is Muslim.

Basically, they may not be a Muslim state, but if you are not Muslim, the government turns it's eyes away from you and lets their people do whatever they want. And it really hasn't changed since when my dad was little (he is over 70). This is what separates them from the way things are run in places like the US and Canada. Which I'm guessing is what Khalil was trying to suggest.

Are you correcting something i said or are you making an anedoctal contribution?

[Ksandra]

Are you correcting something i said or are you making an anedoctal contribution?

You tried lumping Egypt in with turkey and they are not the same (the way they are run), and it's closer to what Khalil was saying which you imply he knows nothing about. I agree with Khalil that some of the middle eastern countries are so wrapped up in religion, you can't expect change to happen fast.

I wouldn't have mentioned anything though if you hadn't you brought up Egypt as if it isn't the case there.

[Kuya]

You don't know what a secular State/religious State is. Shut up and go away.

edit: religious State= theocracy, according to my posts, though that's not necessarily true

[Ksandra]

You don't know what a secular State/religious State is. Shut up and go away.

yes I do, that's great you think that when I didn't even talk about it.

Egypt maybe classified as secular, and their laws are, but the secularism IS NOT ENFORCED. Which is my point. Again, I agreed with Khalil's first statement about religion preventing a lot of change there. I talked about Egypt because you mentioned it as if it's like Turkey and it isn't.

[Kuya]

The is a difference between a religious State and a State that occasionally acts in a religious manner because its constituents are very religious.

I already covered that. Turkey and Egypt are both secular States. At no point in my post, did i ever say they were exactly alike in the way the State acted. If you understood that a secular State does not mean that the State does not have religious bias, then you wouldn't have said anything at all. This is also why i mentioned that Turkey has a strong separation between religion and State. Again, your post was unnecessary.

[Ksandra]

all I'm doing is supporting this statement as being true in at least egypt because I have known and seen what it's like:

The middle east is a shit fucking place when it comes to freedom of speech, religion, habits, heck I doubt it even allows fucking freedom. We have come to expect such fucking filth from Middle East because they're dead set on merging religion with state affairs, when in reality, it should be divided up. Hence, their lack compromise. However, in modern democracies, we expect all of the above because they're the goals we strive to achieve, our examples.

I already covered that.

And that has nothing to do with me "not knowing what a secular/religious state is." so what's your point? you aren't making any sense.

[Ksandra]

If you understood that a secular State does not mean that the State does not have religious bias, then you wouldn't have said anything at all.

or maybe you implied they were which is why I posted (which is what I said). so you're basically arguing from your own reasons as to why I posted, versus what I actually said why I posted.

If you don't think it's the case, then fine, I misunderstood that you were lumping them in together. But don't be stupid and assume I meant something else when I've already said the reason.

[Kuya]

I already explained this, hence this conversation is over.

[Ksandra]

ya well you kept adding to posts after I typed mine so

[Melena]

Kuya arguing with Ksandra over stupid shit? Nah, not in my BG.

[Kuya]

The organization and nature of States isn't usually called stupid shit, but i suppose on a video game forum it might.

[Melena]

No, what you were arguing with Ksandra was stupid. But then again 99% of the time you turn something into an argument, it becomes stupid real quick.

[Kuya]

Okay, thanks for commenting on the accuracy, rigour, and content of the argument. Your detailed and involved contribution was much appreciated.

[Ksandra]

kuya's arguing would go much better if he wouldn't make a small comment, then re-edit it with 5 more sentences after you've started writing up a reply.

[Melena]

Okay, thanks for commenting on the accuracy, rigour, and content of the argument. Your detailed and involved contribution was much appreciated.

learned by watching you. When in doubt, stamp your feet, plug your ears and scream I can't hear you.

[Kuya]

I'll stop stamping my feet when you convince me the other person has anything left of value to say. Otherwise, i'll let the other intelligent posters tell me when i've been wrong for dismissing someone who had a legitimate point to make and did not simply severly misunderstand or flat out did not know what they were talking about.

edit: thus far, it sounds that you just don't like it when i dismiss idiots. In that case, deal with it.

[zoobernut]

Can't we all just get back to hating people who support Prop 8, raging about the stay, and calling Prop 8 supporters bigots? Then we can agree with each other again.

[Melena]

But that could get in the way with Kuya trying to prove that he's the worlds smartest man and anyone who may possibly disagree with him is stupid and should be shot.