Abyssea NM Weaknesses

[NynJa]

I'd also like to point out, you're mistaking 60% haste. I had no bard, haste spell, and my evasion set has nothing as far as haste goes (suppa, thats it).

It wasnt Eyes on Me, the first screenshot completely debunks that spell.


Also "grellow is a waste of time"...if I didnt waste my time triggering grellow here, I'd still be in Vunkerl fighting rabbits instead of upgrading Vermys boots since both these Goetia seals were grellow!! drop slots.

Spoiler: show

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9...1114120944.png

[Thorny]

I'm not getting into the grellow debate because your argument is flawed, obviously you should use what you have to try to proc it. It's going out of the way on T1 NMs that's a waste.

First screenshot doesn't prove shit, it's a long cast and the mob could have tped. You need timestamp at the very least.

[ringthree]

Eyes on me: ~2.5 rounds of nynja's attack
Lightning Threnody: <1 round of nynja's attack(log message for started casting is AFTER his round started displaying and before the next round displayed)

60% haste, delay:292 with mandau/kila+1, suppa, /nin
116.8 = 1.9 sec * 2.5 = 4.75
1 = 1.9

Lightning Threnody is a 2 second casttime, could've been using song casttime- stuff but it still looks more like eyes on me to me.. as a 4.5 second cast it fits my timeline given that the time between start of cast and first attack round is ambiguous. (Save us this bullshit and use timestamp next time?)


5 minutes + 3min repop * 13 people = 104 char-minutes
2 minutes + 3 min repop * 3 people = 15 char-minutes
If for whatever reason your group is so incompetent they can't fathom splitting up, then grellowing T1 is more efficient. Otherwise, you cast what you have as long as it doesn't noticably slow the fight.

This is some of the worst logic I have ever heard.

It only takes basically 4 jobs to proc all grellow, and mobs can drop multiple job seals and can drop multiples of the same job. It's only a waste if you are only thinking about yourself. It's like saying you shouldn't use TH because hey what you want will drop inevitably right?

[NynJa]

How does the first screenshot not prove that its not Eyes on Me? lol, are you fucking retarded?

Flux starts casting Firespit around the same time Sirrush uses Snowball (which by the way is a 6.5 second cast time), and then Eyes on me after (THATS A LONG LASTING TP MOVE BRAH), with NO methods of stunning casted between. Regardless of Timestamp being there or not, how can it be Eyes on Me?

I have another situation, same day, but I didnt bother keeping tangible proof of it because I was under the impression that resisted spells can still proc it, and I thought someone just fucked up. I was fighting Funereal Apkallu, I casted every viable spell I had to no avail, I then asked the groups blu and one of our whm's to come by, and cast their spells, figuring it was one of those, nothing, which left one of two things: it was either Kurayami (no ninjas), or a threnody that was resisted and failed to proc.

Have fun thinking resisted spells proc grellow...not that it matters since the only spells that will ultimately get resisted are threnodies or Kurayami (blu spells are worded differently, they "fail to take effect", which from a coding standpoint act differently from "resists"), it should be hard to find a second time. If YOU want though, when you find a mob whos grellow!! is Threnody, how about YOU send someone out as either an underlvled bard or /brd, and YOU have them attempt to replicate said !! with a resisted threnody.

It's like saying you shouldn't use TH because hey what you want will drop inevitably right?

Doesnt seem to stop most retards from wasting everyones time by Pinning shit solo

[Holyman]

I'm not getting into the grellow debate because your argument is flawed, obviously you should use what you have to try to proc it. It's going out of the way on T1 NMs that's a waste.

First screenshot doesn't prove shit, it's a long cast and the mob could have tped. You need timestamp at the very least.

It's not a waste unless you want to go 1/20+ on shit you want , it doesn't take an IQ of 150 to try 24 spells if you organize your members each using certain spells , it's really effecient way to finish shit fast , that's my opinion .

[NynJa]

No, I do understand his argument there. If you have 3-4 melee beating on something, riding hasso and basically feeding it TP out the ass, theres really no point trying to trigger grellow!! because every attempt is going to fail. Good luck landing Quake if the mob's used 2-3 TP moves in the time it took to cast it. The mobs gonna die in like 2 minutes anyways, and you've got a shitton of pops. Why bother.

[Cymmina]

This is some of the worst logic I have ever heard.

It only takes basically 4 jobs to proc all grellow, and mobs can drop multiple job seals and can drop multiples of the same job. It's only a waste if you are only thinking about yourself. It's like saying you shouldn't use TH because hey what you want will drop inevitably right?

I agree with this. Before we had the list narrowed down to 8 spells per element, yes it was a waste of time. It only takes 5 people to guarantee grellow for every day of the week. You can drop to 4 if you can avoid Darksday. I don't think that adding 1-2 people to double or triple your seal drop rate is unreasonable. If you're full on seals and just need key items for the +2 NMs, then by all means skip grellow.

[Karbuncle]

Elegy isnt a trigger...and timestamp is ugly. Take a look at the first SS and you'll see it cant be Eyes on Me, unless Flux has learned the secret blu skill that allows dual casting. Also why would flux say "doesnt look like BLU" if EoM wasnt finished casting?



ding ding we have a winner. I was originally 3boxing shit away from the big group, hence why I took a specific combination (thf/nin blm/whm rdm/brd), I stayed in the alliance so I dont rot seals I didnt want and could get lights / TE's. You'd be surprised how much less a mob TP's when you have one person fighting it, and a tank who relies on NOT getting hit.

FYI i meant Threnody not Elegy. Sorry that took a while to respond.

I mix those two up all the time.

[Thorny]

If the 1-2 people can kill a seperate NM at an equal speed, you're losing time in the long run. How is that hard to understand?

MNK + WHM/SCH + THF/NIN. Throw out the spells you can use, which is really just ninjutsu and the 5 light spells + drain/aspir/dispel. 14/88 = .159 chance of proc.

Baseline Avg: 1.5 sells
Grellow Avg: 3 seals

1.5 * .841 = 1.2615
3 * .159 = .477

Average: 1.7385 seals.
Killspeed: 2 minutes
??? Wait: 3 minutes
Seals: .3477/minute
Per Person: .1159/minute

BLU BLM BRD MNK THF(Someone picks up slack for healing off of subjob I guess, need both BLU and BLM main to guarantee as well as BRD if nynja is to be taken as correct)
Let's say that due to the extra people, you can kill it nearly instantly after proc. 2 minutes 30 seconds per(obviously if you need all 3 AM, it'll take longer, but if you get proc early it'll be shorter.

Average: 3 Seals
Killspeed: 2.5 minutes
??? wait: 3 minutes
Seals: .545/minute
Per Person: .109/minute

The ideal balance is somewhere in the middle, if you have more people there are dozens of other things to do in the zone including other triggered mobs with the same drops.

[NynJa]

What the fuck is with you and "PERSON MANHOUR TIME", seriously you ride this shit like its the only important ffxi stat there is.

[Thorny]

It's the only definitive stat regarding efficiency. I post things like this because it irritates me when idiots post things like this:

It's not a waste unless you want to go 1/20+ on shit you want , it doesn't take an IQ of 150 to try 24 spells if you organize your members each using certain spells , it's really effecient way to finish shit fast , that's my opinion .

[NynJa]

guess I should break up with my gf then, since I can jerk off in 3 minutes, but it takes like an hour to finish with her after all the foreplay and what not, what a waste of time

[Thorny]

ITT: Sex = Seal Farming

You gain additional utility from having an hour long sex session(personal pleasure/validation, both physical and mental, as well as providing the same for your partner) over masturbation, unless your goal is just to produce semen. I fail to see the utils gained from spending longer on seal farming. That said, I don't think this is a good comparison to have in advanced, especially if Isla is awake.

[ringthree]

If the 1-2 people can kill a seperate NM at an equal speed, you're losing time in the long run. How is that hard to understand?

MNK + WHM/SCH + THF/NIN. Throw out the spells you can use, which is really just ninjutsu and the 5 light spells + drain/aspir/dispel. 14/88 = .159 chance of proc.

Baseline Avg: 1.5 sells
Grellow Avg: 3 seals

1.5 * .841 = 1.2615
3 * .159 = .477

Average: 1.7385 seals.
Killspeed: 2 minutes
??? Wait: 3 minutes
Seals: .3477/minute
Per Person: .1159/minute

BLU BLM BRD MNK THF(Someone picks up slack for healing off of subjob I guess, need both BLU and BLM main to guarantee as well as BRD if nynja is to be taken as correct)
Let's say that due to the extra people, you can kill it nearly instantly after proc. 2 minutes 30 seconds per(obviously if you need all 3 AM, it'll take longer, but if you get proc early it'll be shorter.

Average: 3 Seals
Killspeed: 2.5 minutes
??? wait: 3 minutes
Seals: .545/minute
Per Person: .109/minute

The ideal balance is somewhere in the middle, if you have more people there are dozens of other things to do in the zone including other triggered mobs with the same drops.

You make bad assumptions here.

Baseline for no grellow is more like an avg of 1 seal.

Baseline for grellow is definitely closer to 4 seals.

And you are still operating on the idea that you only need one kind of seal. You get more multiples for multiple jobs with grellow.

The only thing you have been correct about is comparing doing this to pinning. Pinning is horribly inefficient. So is going without TH. So is going without grellow if you need seals.

Also your job selection doesn't make sense.

Last night we were doing grellow with 5. THF, BLU, BRD, BLM and WHM. We had everything covered except one NIN spell for dark.

[NynJa]

So its better to go for 0-2 seals instead of going for 0-5 seals...as I already demonstrated, had I not triggered grellow on Gary, I would have spent additional time in Vunkerl getting my last Goetia: Ft seal. You like math, which is more likely to net you more seals? Distribution of 2 in a pool of 4, or distribution of 5 in a pool of 4...kill time is similar.

Thorny's not-WHM mages can cast Holy/Flash/Banish3 btw ^_^

[ringthree]

So its better to go for 0-2 seals instead of going for 0-5 seals...as I already demonstrated, had I not triggered grellow on Gary, I would have spent additional time in Vunkerl getting my last Goetia: Ft seal. You like math, which is more likely to net you more seals? Distribution of 2 in a pool of 4, or distribution of 5 in a pool of 4...kill time is similar.

Thorny's not-WHM mages can cast Holy/Flash/Banish3 btw ^_^

Additionally, it is not 0-5 for grellow. With TH and grellow, the lowest I have seen is 2 seals, and that is really rare.

[Thorny]

This'll be fun.

You make bad assumptions here.

Liar.

Baseline for no grellow is more like an avg of 1 seal.

Personally farmed 1200 seals, I probably have more +1s on my characters than your whole linkshell. With TH5+atma, it's certainly closer to 2 seals/kill than 1 on average.. might even be above 1.5.

Baseline for grellow is definitely closer to 4 seals.

Possible, don't have a large documented sample size for this so I can't contradict it. It's certainly between 3 and 4 on average.

And you are still operating on the idea that you only need one kind of seal. You get more multiples for multiple jobs with grellow.

You're a moron. 3 slots with 4 possibilities on each is exactly twice as 1.5 slots with 4 possibilities on each. It doesn't matter which seals you need, it's the same fucking thing. 1 Slot = 1 Slot.

The only thing you have been correct about is comparing doing this to pinning. Pinning is horribly inefficient. So is going without TH. So is going without grellow if you need seals.

I said nothing about pinning anytime recently, what?

Also your job selection doesn't make sense.

Last night we were doing grellow with 5. THF, BLU, BRD, BLM and WHM. We had everything covered except one NIN spell for dark.

You just recommended the same job selection, except you replaced MNK with WHM in a setup that already had 2 mages and a BLU. What the fuck, really? WHM is for lightsday only when aiming for maximum efficiency. A bard and BLM are more than capable of supporting a MNK on any mob that drops seals.


If you bump the droprate of seals to 1.25 for no-grellow and 4 for grellow, you're looking at:

MNK + WHM/SCH + THF/NIN. Throw out the spells you can use, which is really just ninjutsu and the 5 light spells + drain/aspir/dispel. 14/88 = .159 chance of proc.

Baseline Avg: 1.5 sells
Grellow Avg: 3 seals

1.25 * .841 = 1.05125
4 * .159 = .636

Average: 1.68725 seals.
Killspeed: 2 minutes
??? Wait: 3 minutes
Seals: .33745/minute
Per Person: .1124/minute

BLU BLM BRD MNK THF(Someone picks up slack for healing off of subjob I guess, need both BLU and BLM main to guarantee as well as BRD if nynja is to be taken as correct)
Let's say that due to the extra people, you can kill it nearly instantly after proc. 2 minutes 30 seconds per(obviously if you need all 3 AM, it'll take longer, but if you get proc early it'll be shorter.

Average: 4 Seals
Killspeed: 2.5 minutes
??? wait: 3 minutes
Seals: .727/minute
Per Person: .145/minute

This amounts to a 29% benefit to the bigger group, which is still nothing. There's 0 reason to flaunt that you need grellow on t1s, the first estimate had the small group w/o grellow coming out ahead.. and the reality is it's probably somewhere in the middle. Statements like:

Pinning is horribly inefficient. So is going without TH. So is going without grellow if you need seals.

are completely idiotic. It's not 'horribly inefficient', if you add the time organizing more people you'll ALWAYS come out behind.. especially considering how conservative my time estimates are. It's an alternative, not a replacement.

[Mercilessturtle]

If the 1-2 people can kill a seperate NM at an equal speed, you're losing time in the long run. How is that hard to understand?

From what I've seen, grellow is more like tripling your average seal drops, not doubling them (almost always get 2-4 with grellow, and get 0-2 without), so killing 1 NM per 5 minutes with grellow is more seals than killing 2 per 5 minutes without grellow. And if 2 groups of 3 are giving up a brd, then they are taking longer to kill their 2 NMs than a single group of 6 triggering grellow are to kill 1, so you aren't even doubling your killspeed. If they are doing dd+brd+whm to keep up on kill speed then they are giving up TH and reducing their drop rate even more.

A mnk+whm+thf is not killing faster than mnk,brd,whm,thf,blu,blm even factoring in triggering weakness. With penance, everything but the aga3s and AM are done without any slow down at all, and a monk with marches is killing faster than one without. Once triggered, you have a thf blu and blm spamming to speed it up even more. Those faster kills easily make up for the ones where the blm gets into the AMs which is the only time it does slow down the kill.

A 1.5 seals average without weakness sounds incredibly optimistic. We don't do many without triggering, but the ones I have I've seen a lot more 0 seals than I have 2 seals. An average of 1 sounds more realistic.

[Thorny]

Personally, I can floor every T1 NM in less than 2 minutes. Casttime combined with hate and worrying about killing the mob early is a pretty big slowdown. I can have notepad++ filter out all my seal drop pools again, but last time I did that I had an average of 1.4 for a 150 pool sample without !!. That was pre-poulaines+2, current is just eyeballing but I almost never see 0 seals. I've not once said either method is wrong, my problem is with people saying you need to grellow: you don't. I've gotten far more seals in far less time than anyone.. keep killspeed up and bring TH and you're golden.. if you have friends who can grellow and need stuff, awesome. If you don't, it's not making a notable impact on your crap. It's a near-nonexistant difference in efficiency.

If you're splitting up, you need to note that ??? repop time plays a big part in the overall pace. If you take 3 minutes instead of 2 to kill, it's 6/5 or 20% longer.. not 50% longer.

T2, however, gain about 150% from a grellow proc and there's no excuse not to use it.

[Mercilessturtle]

Personally, I can floor every T1 NM in less than 2 minutes.

And it would be faster with double marches. The spells are split up between several people, the only one slowing things down at all is the blm if they get past t3s and t4s. Brd has 3 spells, thf has 3 spells, blu has 6, blm has 6 reasonable cast time spells. All that is done in the first 30 seconds usually. The idea that 3 people are killing faster than 6 is wrong, the extra damage makes some kills faster for the 6 people, balancing out the occasional slower kill because of agas/AM. The only time it slows things down at all is when you have to make the monk turn around if you get past t4s without triggering, or it'll die before you can get through AM. The blm is the only one with issues pulling hate, and having a spellcast setup for grellowing that swaps in the opposite staff combined with a thf to steal your hate solves that just fine. Worst case I die, get up and continue casting with my freshly zeroed enmity.

And on the other side, I think some grellow advocates are exaggerating things here. Since the list of grellow spells came out, we've done mnk,brd,whm,thf,blu,blm (or drop the monk when we only have 5) for all our seal farming. I have not seen a single 5 seal pool that entire time, and we almost always trigger grellow (darksday providing the occasional exception). If 5 can drop it is pretty rare.