DOTA 2: Thanks volvo

[Kaylia]

Thanks for the pointers gentlemen.

I've replaced my lunchtime tv episode with dota youtube vids...

Go read trash talking tutorials instead. It will be a lot more handy.



[edit]
Keep in mind you can only truly win at dota when someone rage quit because of you.

[Rivero]

DotA is definitely one of the easier games to master theoretically, it is not very intense just requires lots of games played and good friends or research to learn item builds for heroes. The game itself has a pretty low skill ceiling once you know the basics. The difficulty lies in the fact that you need to believe in 4 other people to play as well as you think you can play. What might make one think DotA is super deep is the fact that they drop you in medias res and there isn't really a tutorial or a gradual spill of knowledge, it's more like a broken floodgate.

The fuck are you talking about? DotA is probably one of the hardest games to master out there alongside Starcraft. The rough beginning isn't what makes it so deep. There are just lots of stupid intricacies like for example learning how the tower aggro system works. There is no explanation of how towers attack, so you're either left with a stupid process of either trial and error, or having an experienced friend tell you himself.

The hero skill cap in DotA far exceeds any other MOBA game out there. Try playing a puck vs the best Puck in the world, you'll get your shit kicked so fast. Watch the chinese Shadowfiends quickly juke and cancel their shadowrazes because they've realized it won't land any more.

DotA 2 should instead try to do the same as Starcraft 1 and try to make a product like SC2. Something a newbie can pick up and have fun with, but still leave room for the pros to create their own sport. DotA 1 is just harsh as fuck and unless you want to waste 5 to 6 months learning everything in a rough manner, I'd just recommend waiting for Dota 2.

There is, but they won't make or break most of your matches. Dying a single time to stupidity is probably going to be more harmful than that.

While they might not make or break your matches, some of them can be greatly influential depending on a specific hero you're playing or certain situation.

[kisada]

in theory there are a billion things you need to learn in order to become a good player. it is not so simple as learning builds and having a good team behind you, and then merely playing a lot. furthermore, you need to continue getting better at micro because the gap between a good player's micro and a great one's is still vast. i used to in house with some high level players on occasion and it is impossible to win a lane, as an example, against them. it kinda bummed me out because i'd get abused in lane by the really elite guys even though i have an embarrassing amount of games/hours played, but i was unwilling to jump into the competitive scene and play 10+ hours a day so i left it at that.

you will always lose to a better player unless you are around his skill level and if you don't play enough it's hard to maintain. and like rivero said, if you watch the really good players they are often doing things that average players never do, plus they make it look easy. there is simply no such thing as a low skill ceiling in this game.

[Iku]

http://www.own3d.tv/live/106735/Na_Vi.Dendi_DotA2_HDTV

Dendi is very good Dota player. You can learn a few tricks while watching him play.

As new player, I would recommend Crystal Maiden and Lich. They are easy to play, high impact in the game, item dependence.

Here are the list of Hard-to-Play heroes:

. Kunkka : Need massive farm, and new player are not used to his ultimate

. Earth Shake: Fissure is a double edge sword. Most new player ends up fucking their own team rather than helping. However, you should try this hero against bots until you know fissure mechanic.

. Chen: Micro intensive.

. Shadow Fiend: Too many people failing with Raze.

[Tyr]

http://www.own3d.tv/live/106735/Na_Vi.Dendi_DotA2_HDTV

Dendi is very good Dota player. You can learn a few tricks while watching him play.

jesus, he makes it look so easy...(and badass)

[kisada]

CM is really not a good idea for a newer player. i'm not sure there's a slower, more fragile hero in the game. you need to have really good map awareness and survival skills just to break even on k/d

[Iku]

CM is really not a good idea for a newer player. i'm not sure there's a slower, more fragile hero in the game. you need to have really good map awareness and survival skills just to break even on k/d

I dont know. I could not break even on K/D on my 69% winrate. Maybe i play the hero wrong?

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...Untitled-1.png

[kisada]

i should have clarified. my point isn't about the kills really, it's that if you are inexperienced at the game it will be a non-stop feeding frenzy for the other team. cm's usefulness will quickly become outlived if that guy gets killed all the time, and map awareness doesn't come to new players overnight. if i'm teaching someone new the last hero i want them to learn is something that will get them killed far more often than any other hero because it'll A. ruin the game for everyone else and B. make it un-fun for that guy himself. i would, however, say that lich is a much better choice to teach to a newer player if someone insisted on learning int first.

[Odon]

Lich is really good imo, especially with the built in auto-deny you can instill that practice in new players..

Also Hey Kis :-p

[kisada]

hi

[Maguspk]

The fuck are you talking about? DotA is probably one of the hardest games to master out there alongside Starcraft. The rough beginning isn't what makes it so deep. There are just lots of stupid intricacies like for example learning how the tower aggro system works. There is no explanation of how towers attack, so you're either left with a stupid process of either trial and error, or having an experienced friend tell you himself.

The hero skill cap in DotA far exceeds any other MOBA game out there. Try playing a puck vs the best Puck in the world, you'll get your shit kicked so fast. Watch the chinese Shadowfiends quickly juke and cancel their shadowrazes because they've realized it won't land any more.

DotA 2 should instead try to do the same as Starcraft 1 and try to make a product like SC2. Something a newbie can pick up and have fun with, but still leave room for the pros to create their own sport. DotA 1 is just harsh as fuck and unless you want to waste 5 to 6 months learning everything in a rough manner, I'd just recommend waiting for Dota 2.

The AI aggro system is not mysterious, you have it explained once and you know it.

The vast amount of 'skill' you are referring to is simply muscle memory that you get from playing with the intent on learning those skills. Cancelling a spell is not difficult, like I said it's just a matter of knowing what can be improved and putting it to practice. In theory the skill cap is very low, you are not required to focus on many things at all when you compare it to something like Starcraft. I don't even know how you can seriously say it's as hard to master as Starcraft, that is just idiotic. Testie, one of the most technically skilled players in HoN has openly said that being a HoN pro takes much less 'skill' than being a Starcraft pro. He jokes about how a Starcraft pro could move to HoN and have some skills he could apply but a HoN player going to Starcraft would really have nothing he could really apply because the skillset is much more limited. It's all situational and hero specific knowledge that you learn over time and with good players, it's not technical skill. There is technical skill yes, and there is a skill gap between pro players and even really good players. I'm not saying technical skill doesn't exist, just that it is not the center piece of the game it is what makes a player squeeze out the best from his hero, obviously, that's what micro is, derp.

Also, DotA on battle.net and DotA 2 have the same skill sets, the heroes play the same. DotA is not magically more difficult to master, and if your argument is 'there are more heroes' then you are supporting my point that it is more about knowledge of situations and not about a technical skill or finesse required.

[Rivero]

Hmm. By your logic nothing really takes "skill" since it's all about muscle memory and tons of practice which is what all games/sports require as a basic level. Granted I wasn't saying DotA was on par with the difficulty of Starcraft/Warcraft etc, rather that it's probably behind them in the list of current games being played professionally. Cancelling a spell is pretty difficult by the way, you claim it can be done quite feasibly through routine practice but I feel as if you are just making those claims without any base.

Heroes of Newerth has probably already fixed most of the inherent bugs that were in DotA 1 due to a newer and better engine but sometimes those "tweaks" also reduces or eases the learning curve by a certain amount. I've never really played too much Starcraft 1 but I heard it was much more difficult compared to SC2, so you can apply this to games coming out several years later like LoL/HoN.

DotA has plenty of micro, it's not on a level like Starcraft but if you aren't smart about how you use it then you aren't really playing said hero to it's full potential. I'm not going to mention Meepo since he has his own league but certain heroes like Chen/Enchant can be played with such a huge gap that if you go against a Pro, you'll really understand how grand the difference really is.

Although you argument seems rather strange to me, you claim that DotA is pure repetition until you get the process down right, but isn't Starcraft the same? Don't you tighten build orders and generally follow a specific goal/style of play? (Have at least X by Y?) Granted things can change obviously but don't you think a similar sort of event could transpire while playing DotA? You could be amazing at cancelling your spells but what happens when your opponent starts predicting your jukes and the game starts to get harder? Starcraft will always be the harder game, I never doubted it. My original statement was simply to state that DotA 1 is far more complex to Dota 2, and complexities can make a game harder just like SC1 -> SC2.

Oh and to your argument about the heroes playing the same, some of them don't actually. Certain heroes have had changes to skills/attack animations and this is pretty core stuff for a DotA player. I can't remember all of them but SF/Mirana/Broodmother/Pudge/Enigma/Windrunner come to mind. Alternatively some heroes got a lot better also.

[Maguspk]

It's a dumb argument either way, but my point is that theoretically DotA has a pretty low barrier to entry and a low skill ceiling, i.e. a player can learn pretty much everything there is to know about managing their hero and the aspects of the game in a very short time depending on who is teaching them. The vast majority of the 'skill' comes in knowing hero specific situations, knowing hero, skill damage, etc. in order that you might be a better judge of situations. Like a good DotA pro is good because he can look at a situation and immediately know the best course of action to take and this is just experience/game knowledge, not necessarily how fast they can click their buttons or right click move. When it comes down to it you really do not need that high of an APM to be a pro.

I agree DotA 2 has simplified DotA if only because there are less heroes and there are things like range indicators, smart casting, auto deny, etc.

[Gredival]

The whole Starcraft 1 skill ceiling vs. Starcraft 2 skill ceiling is a microsm of the whole macro/micro balance. Blizzard streamlined a lot of things in SC2 by including things like smart casting and automining. While for most people this was a welcome change, at the very top levels this lowers the skill ceiling by removing something that players have to manage.

Aside from the fact that heroes are still coming out, I don't think Valve has any plans to remove significant aspects of DotA play from Dota 2. They said specifically they are keeping animation canceling and line-of-sight mechanics so that DotA skillsets transfer to Dota 2. The biggest difference I think people will notice is basic map pathing, but I can tell you that blocking people is still completely possible. I have no idea what Magus means by auto denying.

The sheer fact that DotA lacks an economy/production aspect and is unit control only has enormous implications for the skillset. But at the same time, the micro in Starcraft is completely different from the micro in DotA. I agree that DotA only requires an APM of around 120+ to be top flight, anything else wouldn't be terribly helpful; comparatively, good Starcraft players can utilize APMs much much higher.

[Bweigelt]

So after playing a bunch of CM mode games over the last two weeks I decided I'd give MM a go again. The game was amusing to say the least:

Spoiler: show

[kisada]

sounds like silencer and spiritbreaker are the next two heroes to be added. can't wait!

[Azuark]

So i just got my beta key. I've played Dota, LoL, and HoN so if someone could just point in the direction of some character guides it would be much appreciated.

[gt_killa]

Got my beta key too! Ohhh Weeee! Someone should make a backup of the invite list though. There were some douchebags that came in and put their name toward the top of the list on top of everyone else that been in the list for months.

[Gredival]

So i just got my beta key. I've played Dota, LoL, and HoN so if someone could just point in the direction of some character guides it would be much appreciated.

Use DotA1 guides, the game is an exact port basically.

[Julian]

Got my beta key too! Ohhh Weeee! Someone should make a backup of the invite list though. There were some douchebags that came in and put their name toward the top of the list on top of everyone else that been in the list for months.

Go to file --> see revision history, and you can look through the changes. Find whoever put themselves at the top, and delete them.

Looking at it, it looks like someone was already doing that, and deleting the people who did that. (Either that, or the people who cut got invites pretty quickly. -.-)