DOTA 2: Thanks volvo

[ringthree]

The intention is not, and should not, be beating LoL's numbers. LoL will always attract a bigger playerbase because a) it's tailored to have an easier style and b) the champion-purchase system creates a disincentive to leave the game.

I supposed this is up for interpretation, but I don't really know how LoL is easier, it's definitely easier to learn, but in high-level games I think you are incorrect. The high level games I have watched (tournament-level, etc.) the individual play may be slightly different, but the team on team action is far more complex in LoL. I suspect though that this is largely due to the newness of Dota 2 and that meta-game development is still at an early stage. All the commentary I have heard in comparing the two is that Dota 2 is at about season 1 LoL meta-game development. I would say they are different, and maybe LoL is easier to learn, but both could be equally deep, but the competition is not their yet in Dota 2.

But Dota is explicitly harder and more challenging on a mechanical level. (See: http://bucket.bluegartr.com/8c43a3a0...cc51a8ac9c.jpg) It is also far more intricate balance-wise; since the entire cast is available every-game, heroes don't have to be designed to have similar skillsets or generic moves the same way champions have to avoid "a burden of knowledge" imposed from their ever-growing cast and keeping it balanced with only a few active at any time. It will always have a niche with true gamers, even the market itself continually moves towards Farmville casual.

Again, hard to learn =/= harder or "more challenging" and honestly, linking to three posts from 4chan and color comparison of champs doesn't make a good argument. As for balance, that is not what I have heard at all. Riot does a lot of balancing, and Dota 2 is supposed to be balanced by everyone being overpowered or something. Again, I think that is the newness of the game showing through, because a proper OP/UP meta hasn't developed yet. I think you are definitely over-hyping this "burden of knowledge" thing and confusing it with the notion of "easy to learn, hard to master". While some of the older champs do have rather basic skillsets (as does Dota 2), it's not like Dota2 has (from what I have seen so far) something that compares to Jayce, Elise, Kha'Zix or even older champs. I also don't think you understand how LoL champion selection works very well. Some of this is obviously opinion, but some of it is showing some ignorance on your part.

Also considering you don't have to buy anything at all for the to be fully functional (or competitively equal) if you don't want to pay for early access it's unnecessary. There are invites that go for cents on Steam if you can't acquire one from someone. Are the profiting off some dumb people? Probably. Do I care? Not after seeing how badly some people bed for beta keys even after they are going for a dollar on Steam Market.

Fair enough.

Some follow up questions:

Is there a way to "Smart-cast" (using abilities without targeting reticle, with the spell just reacting to mouse position)?

Why are the starting casts on Alt+key? Where is the keybind menu?

Last hitting seems to be a bit weird because of the movement of the character seems to take precedence over attacking. Should I be closer to creeps when trying to CS?

Wife wants to know if there is a way to permanent lock the camera on your character? She plays camera-centered, and then moves the camera by left-clicking the map or moving the camera off of her character. Is there an equivalent?

Where can I find a list of key functions. "1" seems to do what space bar does in LoL, and I would like to remap it, but I need to know what all the keys do first before I start swapping them around.

Is there a way to speed up movement and especially turning? I can see why orb-walking was developed in Dota, and why it isn't as critical (and harder to do effectively) in LoL. I am used to moving my character constantly while CS'ing, but it seems that this interaction is different in Dota 2. The need to CS comes naturally in LoL, and is actually far more important to be constantly CS in LoL than what I have seen in Dota 2. So the need to CS isn't something that is hard to understand, it just feels like the controls are very clunky and that I am missing CS out of no fault of my own. Do I need to plan my CS better? How do you prevent getting traded when you have to stop to specifically CS?

[Gredival]

but in high-level games I think you are incorrect. The high level games I have watched (tournament-level, etc.) the individual play may be slightly different, but the team on team action is far more complex in LoL. I suspect though that this is largely due to the newness of Dota 2 and that meta-game development is still at an early stage.

You realize Dota 2 is not a new game right? It exactly the same as WC3 DotA (i.e. DotA 1) minus hero ports. The meta has developed over nearly ten years going through numerous stages as the game has constantly balanced and rebalanced itself. The fact that the laning isn't stable like LoL is because there are different options. DotA is about choices, making the right ones and wrong ones, including the draft and how you lane.

All the commentary I have heard in comparing the two is that Dota 2 is at about season 1 LoL meta-game development. I would say they are different, and maybe LoL is easier to learn, but both could be equally deep, but the competition is not their yet in Dota 2.

Commentary from who? Look at that image I linked earlier. That is a professional LoL player that has won WCS admitting that anyone with a dual background realizes there is far more complexity in DotA.

You know why they stay in LoL? Money. More fans, more streaming revenue, and Riot sustains the competitive scene artificially.

Again, hard to learn =/= harder or "more challenging"

The more nuance and mechanics mean there is more to keep track of, and makes it harder to play at the top level. For example, denying. Denying means that a mechanically superior player can completely shut down an opponent by denying all their farm. It means your lane mechanics have to be at a higher level.

You can see this in place between StarCraft BW and SC2. The introduction of automining and increased control groups made the game easier by making it less mechanically challenging resulting in far less skilled players being able to succeed.

honestly, linking to three posts from 4chan and color comparison of champs doesn't make a good argument.

See above. The relevant part of the imagine is the fact that the poster is an LoL WCS Champion (who presumably plays at a very high level, as this was pre-LCS) admitting that his own game's meta is much more simplistic.

Riot does a lot of balancing, and Dota 2 is supposed to be balanced by everyone being overpowered or something. Again, I think that is the newness of the game showing through, because a proper OP/UP meta hasn't developed yet.

No it's the fact IceFrog is perfectly content to let strong skills exist and leave it to the players to learn how to play against it, rather than nerf because a hero being dominant is "anti-fun." As a result things that would be considered overpowered in LoL are standard in DotA; the players adapt to it rather than the game is patched to them.

I think you are definitely over-hyping this "burden of knowledge" thing and confusing it with the notion of "easy to learn, hard to master". While some of the older champs do have rather basic skillsets (as does Dota 2), it's not like Dota2 has (from what I have seen so far) something that compares to Jayce, Elise, Kha'Zix or even older champs.

No what I mean by "burden of knowledge" is something that Morello, the Riot head champion designer, has used when he compared the game. It means necessary investment in "background knowledge" one needs to learn to play. He keeps the burden of knowledge for LoL low by reusing some of the same generic skills and abilities. This is why you will hear LoL criticized for all the champions being the same -- because it's designed that way. It's necessary for Morello to do this because part of the LoL business model - the champion roster rotation - means game would be imbalanced if an important and unique hero were unavailable unless purchased.

In DotA, you could not just remove random heroes from the pool and make them available only to purchasers. The game literally could not function.

And in terms of sheer hardness? No champ LoL has is close to Invoker in terms of complexity. No champ requires the same micro as Meepo. Hell, Morello thinks that Bloodseeker, a hero that is considered shit tier in DotA, is too complex and unfriendly for LoL.

I also don't think you understand how LoL champion selection works very well. Some of this is obviously opinion, but some of it is showing some ignorance on your part.

No, it's because you're pulling assumptions out of no where about how the Dota meta is "immature" because the game is new when the game is years older than LoL and was LoL's predecessor. The game isn't new. It's exactly the same as original DotA, just on an independent platform with updated graphics.

Is there a way to "Smart-cast" (using abilities without targeting reticle, with the spell just reacting to mouse position)?

No and this is by design.

Why are the starting casts on Alt+key? Where is the keybind menu?

Starting cast keys for item actives? You can alter it in the options somewhere, opened from the button in the left top corner.

Last hitting seems to be a bit weird because of the movement of the character seems to take precedence over attacking. Should I be closer to creeps when trying to CS?

I don't know what you mean about precedence. If you right click a target you will move to your max attack range necessary to attack before you attack. If it's a problem, then yes move closer to CS. Are you playing melee heroes?

Wife wants to know if there is a way to permanent lock the camera on your character? She plays camera-centered, and then moves the camera by left-clicking the map or moving the camera off of her character. Is there an equivalent?

Not that I am aware of.

Where can I find a list of key functions. "1" seems to do what space bar does in LoL, and I would like to remap it, but I need to know what all the keys do first before I start swapping them around.

Somewhere in the config menu, again top left corner button.

Is there a way to speed up movement and especially turning? I can see why orb-walking was developed in Dota, and why it isn't as critical (and harder to do effectively) in LoL.

Not that I'm aware of besides boots. Turning rate varies by character, it's an important balance element.

I am used to moving my character constantly while CS'ing, but it seems that this interaction is different in Dota 2. The need to CS comes naturally in LoL, and is actually far more important to be constantly CS in LoL than what I have seen in Dota 2. So the need to CS isn't something that is hard to understand, it just feels like the controls are very clunky and that I am missing CS out of no fault of my own. Do I need to plan my CS better?

You need to make sure you move only after your attack swing is completed. I always keep my character moving as well, it's just about memorizing the attack point in each hero's swing so that your movement doesn't cancel your attack, and so that you can maximize attacks (as you put it, orb walking)

It's important to CS in Dota, but you also have to keep the creep equilibrium in mind. The addition of denying CHANGES EVERYTHING. Being a better CSer gives you a much bigger advantage in Dota because denying shuts down opponents hard.

How do you prevent getting traded when you have to stop to specifically CS?

You can't get perfect CS in this game against competent opponents because of denying. But trading CS is about knowing how many creep hits + hits from specific heroes + tower hits it takes to kill a creep, then hitting creeps in ways that set you up to get the last hit and screw over the opponent.

For example it takes two tower hits and two hero hits (for most heroes) to kill a ranged creep. So if you see your creep taking tower hits, you know that if you can hit it once after the enemy hits it, their tower will take it instead of the hero. Work with your partner - if you both hit it once after the tower hits it, the enemy's hit won't kill it, but the tower will.

[ringthree]

No and this is by design.

Why is not having Smart-casting by design? What is the benefit?

[Bweigelt]

Because the game is balanced around it not being an option. To add it suddenly would be a massive buff to certain spells and items.

[Gredival]

^

The built in mechanical (and admittedly artificial) difficulty of not having smart casting creates a small delay that is crucial for some spells to remain balanced against each other,a nd also to reward players for mechanical skill (APM, positioning, and mouse precision). Having to target click certain skills and abilities matter when small fractions of seconds in casting animations can completely change the outcome of a battle. The fact you have to click your hotkey before moving your cursor places higher penalty on positioning since if you have to reposition with right click you must re-invest the time in hitting the hotkey.

One case in point is Pudge (DotA) vs. Devourer (HoN), where Devourer was tremendously better than Pudge because vector casting made hooks much easier to throw.

When StarCraft II added smart-casting, as well as improved group unit control, they had to massively nerf the way High Templar Psionic Storm worked because it became way too easy for most players to use it and made the spell OP.

[Vandole]

Smart casting would make pudge a lot better, like with devourer in HoN. But I'm 100% content about my pudge pudge being how he is.

At this point, LoL is like american idol. It's the most watched show on tv but its got no substance. Once you give dota a good college try you'll either not like a more difficult game or evolve into a smarter crowd. League meta hasnt changed in years. Dota on the other hand has changed multiple times in the last 365, and has even been rebalanced this week in preparation for TI3.

[ringthree]

Smart casting would make pudge a lot better, like with devourer in HoN. But I'm 100% content about my pudge pudge being how he is.

At this point, LoL is like american idol. It's the most watched show on tv but its got no substance. Once you give dota a good college try you'll either not like a more difficult game or evolve into a smarter crowd. League meta hasnt changed in years. Dota on the other hand has changed multiple times in the last 365, and has even been rebalanced this week in preparation for TI3.

I take it you don't watch professional League or Dota 2? The lane meta is very different than what you think it is in LoL especially early game. It probably is more flexible in Dota 2 though.

Also, LOL at "not like the more difficult game or evolve into the smarter crowd". Intentionally making the mechanics less player-friendly =/= mechanically better, see smart-casting. If you like it that way, then that is cool, no problem with that, but to assume it is better because it's mechanically more difficult is like saying that FFXI is better than WoW (which is what this argument feels like).

Anyway, going to keep trying it for a while. It does take some adjustment, but definitely going to give it the good ol' college try. I really need to rebind some keys or figure out what the base key-binding are.

[Bweigelt]

I take it you don't watch professional League or Dota 2? The lane meta is very different than what you think it is in LoL especially early game. It probably is more flexible in Dota 2 though.

Also, LOL at "not like the more difficult game or evolve into the smarter crowd". Intentionally making the mechanics less player-friendly =/= mechanically better, see smart-casting. If you like it that way, then that is cool, no problem with that, but to assume it is better because it's mechanically more difficult is like saying that FFXI is better than WoW (which is what this argument feels like).

Anyway, going to keep trying it for a while. It does take some adjustment, but definitely going to give it the good ol' college try. I really need to rebind some keys or figure out what the base key-binding are.

You really shouldn't be accusing people of not watching pro games when you've clearly demonstrated in this thread that you have no clue about pro DOTA.

[ringthree]

You really shouldn't be accusing people of not watching pro games when you've clearly demonstrated in this thread that you have no clue about pro DOTA.

I haven't watched much pro-Dota, no. I have watched some (not enough obviously) Dota 2. But the comparison between metas is what I was criticizing. My knowledge of the Dota pro-meta is still developing, but I have some idea. I don't feel the opposite is true. I quite enjoy e-sports so I try to watch as much as possible.

I think you latched onto one question/comment in my post and then ignored and kind of reinforced what I was saying.

[Bweigelt]

I haven't watched much pro-Dota, no. I have watched some (not enough obviously) Dota 2. But the comparison between metas is what I was criticizing. My knowledge of the Dota pro-meta is still developing, but I have some idea. I don't feel the opposite is true. I quite enjoy e-sports so I try to watch as much as possible.

I think you latched onto one question/comment in my post and then ignored and kind of reinforced what I was saying.

Well I could have brought up the fact that he was right about the League laning phase but I thought it would just incite further argument. League is about a static as you can get during the laning phase. The only variation is what lane has 2 in it. There is no other option than 1-1-2 set up. Every time someone has come up with something in league that's different, like the Asian aggresive push strats, it gets nerfed immediately. The game has a static meta, because Riot wants it to be that way. On top of that they discourage aggression which leads to stale gameplay. Even when they make changes they say is to open up more aggression, it ends up being the opposite. DOTA isn't better because it's "mechanically less player friendly", DOTA is better because it allows you play however you want, you aren't pigeon holed into static gameplay. The masses of course will gravitate to LoL because the static gameplay provides a much easier learning curve and it's easier to follow as a spectator even if you haven't played the game. I would wager a large sum of money that most of the League viewers have never watched a pro DOTA game anyway and so aren't as deterred by the boring defensive gameplay League forces pro teams into, like DOTA veterans are.

[Vandole]

I work for evil geniuses, you're right. I watch no pro games whatsoever. This stupidity you brought into this thread needs to end very soon. I warned you once. Please don't ignore this one. And while we're at it, I don't queue against professionals on the daily like what I posted a few days ago. I know nothing about dota or league.

Spoiler: show

My international 3 courier also doesn't have 83 games watched on it

[lilfoo]

Since people are doing LoL/DotA comparisons i would like to ask a question: every time i try and get into and give DotA a try i read and do research and i see how their is no Ability Power in DotA so the only thing that increases a skill's dmg is levels. How dose that affect mages, my favorite player type?

Every time i see it i always think mages just become supports late game b/c their dmg just falls off where AP casters can carry games in LoL.

[Arkanna]

Since people are doing LoL/DotA comparisons i would like to ask a question: every time i try and get into and give DotA a try i read and do research and i see how their is no Ability Power in DotA so the only thing that increases a skill's dmg is levels. How dose that affect mages, my favorite player type?

Every time i see it i always think mages just become supports late game b/c their dmg just falls off where AP casters can carry games in LoL.

Items man, items. Consider Zeus and his ultimate, which is a global (as in, hits all enemy heroes regardless of position) lightning strike that does moderate damage. You can boost the damage it does with Aghanim's Scepter, and you can instantly refresh the cooldown on it with a Refresher Orb.

[Vandole]

Think about it like this, if your damage falls off late game why would you let it get to that point? By picking an early high damage hero, you're gambling that you will win quickly due to your quick strength. In the same vein, these heroes also have items like aghanims scepter, force staff, euls, blink dagger, veil of discord, dagon, orchid, scythe of vyse, and others.

You can carry(as in lead the team, not right click to death) with practically anything, but due to the games design you're going to have a harder time at certain points in the game with every hero.

Gredival plays zeus a LOT and scales into late game because he is capable of obtaining the gold to get scepter and refresher orb, possibly even a veil too if time permits. Due to this, he can quite literally take half an entire teams hp if not more depending on their health just from two ults. If the game goes just right two ults can kill 3/5 of a team(supports.)


If that's the role you're wanting to play, it is much different in dota. You're much more active and you arent doing a passive laning phase. It's normal now in dota for supports to roam the entire time and gank middle lane, as well as camp rune spawns in order to secure an easier time for their mid lane. With this new meta emerging I'm personally only competant with TA and Skywrath to win mid. I can survive as pudge or nyx but that's about it.

[Cichy]

Since people are doing LoL/DotA comparisons i would like to ask a question: every time i try and get into and give DotA a try i read and do research and i see how their is no Ability Power in DotA so the only thing that increases a skill's dmg is levels. How dose that affect mages, my favorite player type?

Every time i see it i always think mages just become supports late game b/c their dmg just falls off where AP casters can carry games in LoL.

It's a trade of since mages lots of times have ability to stun, etc and usually shine in the early game. Skill damage almost never increases unless it's a skill affected by the Scepter like Arkanna said.

[Vandole]

I have a pretty large league background so if there's anything you need me to translate into dota2nese I can give it my best shot at it, by the way.

[Arkanna]

Why do I see so many teams triple-laning top now? Is that a new thing?

*edit* Nvm, looks like creep abuse.

[Vandole]

trilanes are standard now in the safe lane, or an offensive trilane as well with a very strong level 1 setup like Visage, SD, and phantom lancer

radiant safelane = bot
dire safelane = top

[Galkaeater]

Quite possibly the worst game I have ever played
lost all because luna bought back but didn't bother defending just went for a fucking walk across the map before turning back

[Vandole]

dont forget to say who you are if your name is different than your bg name, are you the brew?