DOTA 2: Thanks volvo

[Galkaeater]

I was the tide I was on the losing side

[Gredival]

I take it you don't watch professional League or Dota 2? The lane meta is very different than what you think it is in LoL especially early game. It probably is more flexible in Dota 2 though.

I work for a professional gaming organization with top tier professional teams in both games, doing tournament coverage and tournament administration. Vandole works on the fighting games division of the same team, but has played both games and has watched tournaments for both. You are the one that came in asserting flat out incorrect statements saying Dota 2's meta was undeveloped because it was "new."

LoL lane meta is very stable; there are very defined roles (for example there is always a jungler). Comparatively while every Dota team establishes 1-5 positions, the only constant is having 2 supports -- there can be 0-3 carries amongst the remaining 1 through 3 positions. That is what makes the meta much more flexible. We've seen "tri-core" carry line-ups dominate the meta a four years ago, to 4-protect-1 single core strategies dominate 3-2 years ago, to extremely push heavy strategies that get aggressive and take towers at 30 seconds, to today's early team-fight and roam-ganking centric meta.

DotA meta evolves and adapts constantly as patches are released, and teams figure out which heroes are poised to dominate and evolve new strategies placing those heroes at the center. LoL, by comparison, is very static.

Intentionally making the mechanics less player-friendly =/= mechanically better, see smart-casting. If you like it that way, then that is cool, no problem with that, but to assume it is better because it's mechanically more difficult is like saying that FFXI is better than WoW (which is what this argument feels like).

No one said it was better; we said it was harder. "Better" is a qualitative judgment term. StarCraft Brood War required APMs of at least 300+ to play professionally (with most notable pros having 400-600 APM) because the lack of worker automining and control group limits of 12 units with no buildings in control groups meant you had to mechanically move your fingers that at least 300 APM+ to be able to macro efficiently. When control groups and automining was changed in StarCraft II, you could go pro with a much lower APM because there was less to handle. Flat out you didn't have to have the same mechanical skill - you have players like elfi with 90 APM that can succeed professionally by simply being efficient rather than fast.

There are arguments to be made for both sides. Personally I like the mechanically difficult. The extra delay adds in a delay that make certain player attributes (APM, Mouse Precision, Positioning) more important, which creates an extra failure contingency. I think it's important in helping to distinguish the caliber of players. It also flat out makes skill shot abilities mechanically more difficult to land, which adds risk to playing those characters.

I quite enjoy e-sports so I try to watch as much as possible.

Then you should understand the StarCraft comparisons I'm throwing out. At some point the game has to bend for players to play, which in turn grows the audience who can become interested in the eSport (StarCraft II adding auto-mining, smart casting, introducing better control groups). But making the game easier for the common player has a direct impact on the competition. Anyone who's watched both Brood War and StarCraft II competitively will tell you that Brood War was far more complex with larger skill gaps.

I think you latched onto one question/comment in my post and then ignored and kind of reinforced what I was saying.

I was disputing something factually incorrect. Dota is harder. That is by design, admitted by Riot's own champion designer.

That does not mean it is superior; that is dependent on your taste.

Since people are doing LoL/DotA comparisons i would like to ask a question: every time i try and get into and give DotA a try i read and do research and i see how their is no Ability Power in DotA so the only thing that increases a skill's dmg is levels. How dose that affect mages, my favorite player type?

Every time i see it i always think mages just become supports late game b/c their dmg just falls off where AP casters can carry games in LoL.

Certain items can increase a spell caster's DPS (Agahnim Scepter; Veil of Discord). Certain spells and aura also increase magic damage dealt/taken (Decrepify, Ethereal Blade, Elder Titan Aura). And finally, some spells have built in scaling features (Zeus' Static Field; Necrolyte's Reaper's Scythe; Obsidian Destroyer's Arcane Orb; Skywrath Mage's Arcane Bolt). There's also the Refresher Orb that lets you reset cooldowns, so you can toss out an entire second volley.

However by and large, the vast majority of INTs are meant to be played as supports. That doesn't mean they don't have offensive capability, but their damage being static is meant to encourage them to spend money on team items so that AGI heroes whose right-clicks scale with items can spend their money on DPS.

But every hero is different, and there is room for offensive caster carries. As Vandole said, I basically play Zeus as a magic carry. I pretty much rush Veil (25% bonus magic damage) -> Scepter (increases ult spell dmg) -> Refresher (renews all my cooldowns). Zeus has a passive that every cast, he takes 11% of the enemy's HP within a certain AoE, regardless of what I cast. One of my skills only does 50 dmg, but it is a 1 second cooldown. So I sit on the sidelines and spam nuke my 50 dmg skill, but I blast everyone to death because I'm taking 11% of their HP each cast. I'm very squishy though so I can't get into the thick of things like a regular carry; I rely completely on my positioning and my allies to survive. But in at least 97% of my games, I will top the DPS charts because I do so much indirect dmg in passive casting.

So if I'm fully farmed and allowed to take an engagement on my terms, I can debuff their whole team with Veil for bonus dmg, hit my Arc Lightning (just to trigger my passive), nuke one hero with my Thunder Bolt (my stronger nuke), use my ult Thundergod's Wrath to hit every hero, use Arc again. I hit Refresher and ult again. At this point their supports are either dead or have to flee. I've taken at least 50% of everyone's life in passive Static Shock from 8 casts, and have done at least 1280-1600 magic damage to every target through Veil+Bolts+Ults. At this point it should be easy easy cleanup for my team, and I can use both Bolt again and Arc again to zap stragglers. Basically if the opposing team doesn't kill me, I will usually single-handedly win a team fight through attrition, even if they all have BKB (temporary magic immunity item)

There are other casters with potential to do this (Skywrath and Lina lack the same amount of AoE but have much more devastating single target output; Lion can pick off almost any hero without a BKB in a 1v1, Lich can single-handedly destroy an entire team with Chain Frost if they are caught out of position and grouped up). There are also INTs that have right-click modifiers that let them carry (Silencer's Glaives of Wisdom increase his dmg via his INT, Obsidian Destroyer's Arcane Orb gives bonus pure damage based on a % of his total mana)

The key is making sure your lanes set you up for success. If you have to support a carry in lane, you probably will not get the XP or Gold to carry even though caster carries require cheaper total gold. The team needs to be composed such that the INT is expected to carry and the team is prepared to support him in that endeavor. When I play Zeus, I always take mid so that I get a good level advantage to give myself the momentum to gank. Also if things aren't going right, you have to adapt. If I'm not farmed enough to obliterate a team, I will go Force Staff or Ghost Scepter so I can avoid getting picked off because I'm not doing any damage while dead. If it's clear that I'm past the point where my farm will actually help me contribute, I will take over warding as well.

Also remember there are a lot of "juking" items in Dota that allow a caster to dodge physical carries. Force Staff, Cyclone Stick (Scepter of Divinity), Sheep Stick (Scythe of Vyse), Ghost Scepter can all make it impossible for heroes to focus you down, forcing them to switch targets or waste their time. Skilled casters will always escape, if not outright destroy, inept right-clickers if they can use these items correctly.

And btw Zeus is not considered competitive tier. This is what I mean by the fact Dota is balanced through imbalance. A hero that can reduce all opponents to 50% HP in 3 seconds isn't competitive.

Why do I see so many teams triple-laning top now? Is that a new thing?

Some form of a "trilane" exists in almost every professional Dota game and the vast majority of top level games. This guide I wrote explains some of the different trilanes, why the meta exists, and basic trilane strategy.

http://www.monsterenergygaming.com/News/?id_news=143

[ringthree]

I learned a lot from that post. Thanks.

[Lucavi]

And oh my god did they buff chain frost. 10 bounces? Seriously?

[Vandole]

They did indeed. He still sucks

[Lucavi]

I'd rather them replace the armor with another CC, but it is what it is. That shit still hurts like a bitch if your positioning was improper.

[Kaope]

If there was anything dota needed, it's the surrender option. There are just games that you can't possibly win.....

[Gredival]

No, concede is terrible because people will give up games that ARE winnable because you can "maximize wins" by only playing out the games you have an early lead or will spam concede and fountain sit until the team votes with them when they feed first blood

[Bweigelt]

Yeah what gred said, concede options lead to way more problems than they solve.

[Lucavi]

No, concede is terrible because people will give up games that ARE winnable because you can "maximize wins" by only playing out the games you have an early lead or will spam concede and fountain sit until the team votes with them when they feed first blood

I dunno, 0-9 against koreans within the first 10 minutes had me wanting a surrender option. Its better than the usual "we're winning and the opponents gave up, but we'll stretch a 25 minute game into 55 so we can farm all our goodies up, then get mad when they don't let us kill them after sitting there for 30 minutes", which happens distressingly often.

I'd support a surrender option if it was unlocked after a set time point, such as 25-30 minutes.

[Galkaeater]

make it so you can only concede after a certain time, counts as a loss but better than waiting another 15mins for the enevitable

there I am now better than icefraud

[Vandole]

If there was anything dota needed, it's the surrender option. There are just games that you can't possibly win.....

No. This isn't true even in league of legends.

I've won games 2v5 before, if you are good enough you can carry it through. We were pudge/furion.

[Gredival]

I think there needs to be something to stop fountain diving. If they stopped that, then concede would be unnecessary. Most people dicking around and not pushing to win is because they are trying to score fountain dive kills (esp. with Pudges)

[Cichy]

I think there needs to be something to stop fountain diving. If they stopped that, then concede would be unnecessary. Most people dicking around and not pushing to win is because they are trying to score fountain dive kills (esp. with Pudges)

I completely agree, the fountain should insta kill you. Would cut most of the games down by few minutes.

[ringthree]

I dunno, 0-9 against koreans within the first 10 minutes had me wanting a surrender option. Its better than the usual "we're winning and the opponents gave up, but we'll stretch a 25 minute game into 55 so we can farm all our goodies up, then get mad when they don't let us kill them after sitting there for 30 minutes", which happens distressingly often.

I'd support a surrender option if it was unlocked after a set time point, such as 25-30 minutes.

Even after a time period, the "we lost a team fight, and even though we are winning in kills and towers, it's over" attitude still persists. The problem is that without a surrender option you get quitters which is even worse.

[Vandole]

It's so much more fun to have unkillable phantom lancer clones sitting in enemy fountain waiting for respawn though.

[Lucavi]

No. This isn't true even in league of legends.

I've won games 2v5 before, if you are good enough you can carry it through. We were pudge/furion.

And if you aren't good enough, its nice to not have to wait another 30 minutes while your opponents farm their third divine rapier while you sit in fountain trying not to get an AFK.

[Vandole]

so just abandon, that has never happened to me lol

[Kaope]

Even in competition games, you still see teams conceding all the time (I think dendi surrendered not too long ago in a match as pudge). However, I do agree something has to be done to stop fountain farming, it's just disrespectful to the opposing team.

[Gredival]

Even in competition games, you still see teams conceding all the time (I think dendi surrendered not too long ago in a match as pudge). However, I do agree something has to be done to stop fountain farming, it's just disrespectful to the opposing team.

The difference is when you concede as a team in a competitive match, it's usually the Captain making the call for the team and they abide by that. Usually it only happens with 2 lanes down, unless they're just massively behind (fastest I've seen is a 7 min GG with 30+ kill lead and all towers dead).

But I've also seen times where players have GG'd and their Captain has refused to GG and said play it out. I've also seen Captains call GG with teams refusing to concede (in one instance Puppey called GG and Na'Vi didn't want to, so Puppey began purposefully feeding to force his team out)

Introducing a concede vote is Pandora's Box because players will adjust their behavior based off the fact concede exists. You will shift the median game that is "worth" playing.

If a single person doesn't want to play, they can abandon and take their LPQ punishment. The punishment exists because calling GG early ruins the game.