Hysteria over Muslims spreads all over America!

[Drex]

How can you put all Muslims under one umbrella, assert that these Muslims as a whole wanted 9/11 to happen, and then pretend you aren't being hateful?

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I don't think it was a victory. I think the sponsors think it was a victory.

And your just proving my point. There is evidence that that is the case, yet it is stupid to believe so. There's no evidence, yet, that this guy committed the crime because of hate speech, yet, it's plausible to think he did.

Edit: Read the prior post Drex. If you did, I don't see how logical assumptions based on facts are hateful. "Right-wingers oppose gay marriage. It is possible that Joe Bloe opposes gay marriage b/c of homophobia." That's hate speech?

[archibaldcrane]

I don't think it was a victory. I think the sponsors think it was a victory.

Based on what? The imam's continuing efforts with the Bush and now Obama State department working on US Muslim outreach projects? His even-tempered acknowledgment that US foreign policy has caused blowback?

Go ahead. State your case that the "sponsors" (say who) think 9/11 was a victory for the religion of Islam. Be articulate, cite sources, etc. The burden is on you to make your case.

[Kuya]

I don't think it was a victory. I think the sponsors think it was a victory.

And your just proving my point. There is evidence that that is the case, yet it is stupid to believe so. There's no evidence, yet, that this guy committed the crime because of hate speech, yet, it's plausible to think he did.

Edit: Read the prior post Drex. If you did, I don't see how logical assumptions based on facts are hateful.

Are you serious?

[kuronosan]

So in other words, you don't have any evidence to support your claim, so you're going to go with the "There's no proof he doesn't feel that way, so we should assume he does" argument.

That is complete, utter, absolute bullshit.

Oh, and learn to use "your" properly. Your dipshittery is showing again.

P.S. Ignoring plausible arguments is not going to make you look smarter.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Based on what? The imam's continuing efforts with the Bush and now Obama State department working on US Muslim outreach projects? His even-tempered acknowledgment that US foreign policy has caused blowback?

Go ahead. State your case that the "sponsors" (say who) think 9/11 was a victory for the religion of Islam. Be articulate, cite sources, etc. The burden is on you to make your case.

Without an explicit admission intent can only proved by circumstantial evidence. There is enough circumstantial evidence for me to think it likely that their stated reason is bullshit. Surely the burden is on me to convince you otherwise, but I'm not that naive. I'm merely arguing that it's plausible for people to be upset by the construction of this Mosque and that it is not because they're Muslim haters, that's the only burden I'm trying to meet, or capable of meeting on this board.

[Boyiee]

Brains are turning into mush.

So how about that rally. Dailyshow/colbert were great this week... only caught a few minutes of olbermann, did catch the mother part though.

[Demosthenes11]

Without an explicit admission intent can only proved by circumstantial evidence. There is enough circumstantial evidence for me to think it likely that their stated reason is bullshit. Surely the burden is on me to convince you otherwise, but I'm not that naive. I'm merely arguing that it's plausible for people to be upset by the construction of this Mosque and that it is not because they're Muslim haters, that's the only burden I'm trying to meet, or capable of meeting on this board.

maybe one day you will wake up and realize everything you believe is bullshit spewed by idiots with agendas that use careful language and arguments to pass on fear, hatred, and disdain for others.

I'm glad I was able to wake up. What you believe is bullshit, plain and simple

[Kuya]

A few things that i haven't commented on yet in some detail:

1- The insensitivity argument: To whom is the community center (for some reason Swamp insist on calling it a mosque even though that's not the only thing it is) insensitive towards? The families of 9/11 victims? What exactly makes them uncomfortable about another community center with a mosque in it near ground zero? What do these Muslims trying to build this community center have to do with 9/11? The only thing the former seems to have in common with the latter is the fact that both involve Muslims. So people are uncomfortable because they are Muslims? This is not bigotry? It's true that some people might not necessarily hate Muslims, but how is adopting a bigoted position any better? It isn't. Anyone who is uncomfortable with this thing is only uncomfortable for one reason: because it involves Muslims. It paints with a single brush a diverse group of people. It's just plain stupid.

2- I have heard, but have not seen confirmed that the people building the community center are Sufis. Anyone who knows anything about Islam knows what this means.

3- I saw Bloomberg on the Daily Show today (technically yesterday) and he mentioned that old saying about how they (Al Qaida) attacked because they hated American values. This is really a sign of a great problem right now. There is still unresolved conflict and wild misunderstanding of the underlying causes of 9/11. This is why some know-nothings insist on Islam being the dynamo behind the 9/11 attack and suspicion of Muslims being justified because of it. There still seems to be some misunderstanding that the reason why the attackers were Muslims was because the Middle East is one of the places where US meddling has led to the deaths of thousands if not millions. Al Qaida specifically attacked because of US involvement in the Middle East. The only link between the terrorists and their religion is that the victims of US involvement in the Middle East were Muslim. So while some of the reason why this flare up started is because of demagogues, it's also a sign to me that America has yet to really understand why 9/11 really happened.

4- All arguments about who funded what, whether there are terrorist ties, whether this is a sign of Muslim victory over America is irrelevant. The real issue is that America has yet to understand why 9/11 happened. And because of this lack of understanding, some Americans continue to view other Muslims with suspicion, as if the fact they were Muslim were the reason why Al Qaida attacked.

[Deftscythe]

3- I saw Bloomberg on the Daily Show today (technically yesterday) and he mentioned that old saying about how they (Al Qaida) attacked because they hated American values. This is really endemic of the great problem right now. There is still unresolved conflict and wild misunderstanding of the underlying causes of 9/11. This is why some no-nothings insist on Islam being the dynamo behind the 9/11 attack and suspicion of Muslims. There still seems to be some misunderstanding that the reason why the attackers were Muslims was because the Middle East is one of the places where US meddling has led to the deaths of thousands if not millions. Al Qaida specifically attacked because of US involvement in the Middle East. The only link between the terrorists and their religion is that the victims of US involvement in the Middle East were Muslim. So while some of the reason why this flare up started is because of demagogues, it's also a sign to me that America has yet to really understand why 9/11 really happened.

Not only do most people not understand this, but many will villanize as anti-American anyone who dares suggest that 9/11 was anything but completely unprovoked.

[Boyiee]

A few things that i haven't commented on yet in some detail:

1- The insensitivity argument: To whom is the community center (for some reason Swamp insist on calling it a mosque even though that's not the only thing it is) insensitive towards? The families of 9/11 victims? What exactly makes them uncomfortable about another community center with a mosque in it near ground zero? What do these Muslims trying to build this community center have to do with 9/11? The only thing the former seems to have in common with the latter is the fact that both involve Muslims. So people are uncomfortable because they are Muslims? This is not bigotry? It's true that some people might not necessarily hate Muslims, but how is adopting a bigoted position any better? It isn't. Anyone who is uncomfortable with this thing is only uncomfortable for one reason: because it involves Muslims. It paints with a single brush a diverse group of people. It's just plain stupid.

I've had a lot of people say to me lately that it is insensitive regardless of if it's a mosque/church/synagogue/whatever. The fact that it's a religious establishment is enough for it not to be there. The "How is it insensitive when there are bars and clubs near by" and "What about the churches right next door" arguments all get the reasoning of: "Well they were already there, you can't tear them down, but nothing new should be built". It's a ridiculous argument and it's backpedaling for sure, but every time you try and validate and add logic to this, people will find a way around it.

I really hate the insensitivity argument. As you said in your first sentence, who is it insensitive towards?... Muslims died in the attack as well, along with jews, christians, etc. Everyone deserves a place to pray or do whatever it is they do in regards to the attack. The other religions have theirs in that area already. People call it a trophy, but they are tuning ground zero into a shrine by disallowing it. Both ways, the bad people win lol.

One other thing I've been hearing a lot lately is that there is a really low population of Mulsims even living in that area, so there is no real reason to build something like this community center. Then again, the building is open to anyone, and has a 500person auditorium in it... and I'm sure there are at least 300-500 Muslims in the area.

[Drex]

Yeah, I'm sure many people are outraged by the building of a community center that will sometimes not be filled to capacity. It's amazing how many straws some people will grasp at to justify their motives.

[Rothbardian]

Without an explicit admission intent can only proved by circumstantial evidence. There is enough circumstantial evidence for me to think it likely that their stated reason is bullshit. Surely the burden is on me to convince you otherwise, but I'm not that naive. I'm merely arguing that it's plausible for people to be upset by the construction of this Mosque and that it is not because they're Muslim haters, that's the only burden I'm trying to meet, or capable of meeting on this board.

Horseshit. The only reason one could oppose such construction is because you hate Islam. This was a great opportunity for "conservatives" to come out and defend property rights, individual rights, and all sorts of things, but of course they hate Islam, more than they "like" property rights/private property. The funny thing is, they have no place to bitch about eminent domain, or militant atheists using the hand of Government to restrict Christianity. Conservatives can't even defend the 1st Amendment and private property, which leads me to believe they don't even believe in such things. Which is an accurate statement considering.

At least Pat Buchanan has the state of mind to see this for what it is. It's funny to hear this argument also coming from the same people who refuse to believe that Osama Bin Laden attacked America not because of "our freedoms and liberties", but because we are a boot-stomping Imperialistic State who crushes everyone and anyone who gets in front of us for global hegemony. It's no wonder why 80% of the guys who flew the planes into the WTC were Saudi Arabian. (Bin Laden himself also)

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Could I just go around posting that the reason you guys don't agree with right-wingers is because you're all hate malingerers even when you've backed up you're positions with different arguments?

At least Kuya can recognize that this is an emotional based response, but then you fucked up it up by saying it's based on hatred, I think.

[Rothbardian]

Could I just go around posting that the reason you guys don't agree with right-wingers is because you're all hate malingerers even when you've backed up you're positions with different arguments?

At least Kuya can recognize that this is an emotional based response, but then you fucked up it up by saying it's based on hatred, I think.

So what reason could you have to oppose the mosque that also doesn't contradict supposed conservative values? Would they also come out against Christians building a Church next to an abortion-clinic that was just bombed and killed 8 people by Christians? Would you then label all of Christianity a religious pox on human-kind? The problem I have with conservatives is they are never consistent. If you are going to be rabid statists and run to the Government for your pet projects, then come out and say so, but don't say you believe in private property, natural rights, and libertarian talking points. It's patently absurd.

Oh by the way, I am a Bourgeois-Right winger according to all the leftists I talk to lmao. Leftists really hate Herbert Spencer, anti-egalitarianism, and meritocracy. (Also that pesky merchant/business "class" who hates getting stolen from)

If you believe in liberty and freedom you have to be tolerant of other peoples choices. So-called conservatives really need to work on this part.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Read my prior post on this page.

[kuronosan]

God damn how can so much stupid occupy one brain?

[BiggestofBismarck]

Could I just go around posting that the reason you guys don't agree with right-wingers is because you're all hate malingerers even when you've backed up you're positions with different arguments?

At least Kuya can recognize that this is an emotional based response, but then you fucked up it up by saying it's based on hatred, I think.

It is based on both. The only people that should have a real emotional response are those directly tied to deaths from the attack. And most of them understand what America is, and therefore have no problem with it. Everyone else is using what some people think are their emotions to stir up the obvious hate for what they don't know/understand/care about. Why do you think that Keith the Construction Worker was pegged as a Muslim and berated? I doubt it was the Under Armor cap he was wearing. Some people can't stand other types of people and will cling to any reason available to hate.

[Cadsuane]

Are you serious?

It's a reasonable objection that the guy's history as an embedded journalist has more to do with what he did than recent controversies do, which would mean that the whole stabbing event is a freak occurence that can't honestly be siezed upon as an indication of a popular anti-islamic movement, even if it is like divine providence for those looking to discredit islamophobes as violent bigots and hate criminals. Archi's basically said the same thing, and unless I've misunderstood you you're willing to overlook that possibility since islamophobia does exist one way or another and this event is too valuable as leverage in the popular debate.

[Demosthenes11]

since when did hatred, fear, bigotry, etc. and "emotional response" become mutually exclusive. also, why is this such a partisan issue? if it weren't about bigotry or hatred, why are all republicans on the same side