Is it still Sam or gtfo?

[Francisco]

Fully merited MNK with Usukane, Black Belt and STR claws - and I shit all over every other DD I've come across since the update.

Stats without food/buffs are STR: 114, DEX: 91, Attack: 450, Accuracy: 397

[Francisco]

As far as penance goes, it goes a long way. The more ppl you have on the mob the more it's worth in terms of mnk being less of a tp feed.

I doubt SAM is anywhere near MNK in terms of TP fed to a mob. I've soloed Ts and VTs without them using a single TP move if I get lucky with the timing of me hitting 100% TP. At worst, the mobs usually get off a WS somewhere around 20-30% HP remaining.

This is only with +15 Subtle Blow, so nothing earth-shattering.

Edit: as MNK

[Mojo]

...

[Cream Soda]

I doubt SAM is anywhere near MNK in terms of TP fed to a mob. I've soloed Ts and VTs without them using a single TP move if I get lucky with the timing of me hitting 100% TP. At worst, the mobs usually get off a WS somewhere around 20-30% HP remaining.

This is only with +15 Subtle Blow, so nothing earth-shattering.

Like I said the more ppl on the mob, the further penance goes. It's minus 25% tp from all sources, so if you have 3-4 ppl hitting it, that really reduces mob tp rate.

For example

4 dd pt.

3 dds and mnk or sam.

Mnk has capped penance and uses whenever possible.

Mob will TP less times adding the mnk to the pt than the sam.

[Francisco]

Like I said the more ppl on the mob, the further penance goes.

I wasn't disagreeing with you - I was saying I'm pretty sure SAM feeds more TP to a mob than MNK does, even without Penance.

[FailureMidgard]

I doubt SAM is anywhere near MNK in terms of TP fed to a mob. I've soloed Ts and VTs without them using a single TP move if I get lucky with the timing of me hitting 100% TP. At worst, the mobs usually get off a WS somewhere around 20-30% HP remaining.

This is only with +15 Subtle Blow, so nothing earth-shattering.

Edit: as MNK

So you're going to argue the math is wrong? You do realize that all you're proving is the mob is hitting 100 TP, and uses it as it enters "use 100 TP instantly" mode, right? And when you get lucky with TP timing, you skip that entire mode. Rough concept.

Sam/nin feeds less than mnk, pre-penance.

[Francisco]

So you're going to argue the math is wrong? You do realize that all you're proving is the mob is hitting 100 TP, and uses it as it enters "use 100 TP instantly" mode, right? And when you get lucky with TP timing, you skip that entire mode. Rough concept.

Sam/nin feeds less than mnk, pre-penance.

I'm not gonna flat out argue against math I haven't seen - but I'd like to see it, as I'm curious which jobs are the best, and worst at feeding a mob TP.

TP fed can mean many things though, when you start getting into JAs, WS and whatever you're fighting...

[darkhorror]

OA3 is hardly required for MNK to be top-tier, it barely edges out STR/Attack claws if you have proper gear. RDM/NIN tank is dead, but /drk is still very viable for fights such as JoL and Ouryu. MNK and SAM are the new standard for good shells on most mobs, with PLD for things that can't be melee damaged effectively.

The OA3 for MNK is going to be one heck of a lot stronger than the STR/Attack. The OA3 as others have said is extreamly strong on MNK.

[Jeryhn]

Level RDM, be useful in everything, end of line.

[Guitarman]

Honestly i'll take the DD not being a fucktard wearing full pearle and str rings or unyielding ring before i worry about what job they are.

[Cream Soda]

The OA3 for MNK is going to be one heck of a lot stronger than the STR/Attack. The OA3 as others have said is extreamly strong on MNK.

It's not THAT far ahead and once you add a cor in for fighter's roll str/attack claws slightly edge out.

If no war in the pt then they're about even.

I'm not sure about sam roll, but don't think anyone is gonna change a pt roll just for the mnk.

[Darkmagi]

Well generally if you are with 2h DDs, sam roll would be worth using over fighter's. Shit's situational as always.

[Plow]

Honestly i'll take the DD not being a fucktard wearing full pearle and str rings or unyielding ring before i worry about what job they are.

full perle can be quite good, especially right now when you'd be crazy to hold on to dusk+1 based on what we've already seen come out

[shepardG]

Well generally if you are with 2h DDs, sam roll would be worth using over fighter's. Shit's situational as always.

Shit is definetly situational but, (and i learned this the hard way from braarg in iizerg) unless your 2h's are aware of the requirements of sam's roll to give them one less hit during their TP phase, to encompass the different rolls that a cor can get (which is why fighters is better, attack is always useful and un-complicated) then all that extra Store TP just goes to waste /shrug

I.e. If your getting 16.7 TP per hit for a 100.2 6-hit, and you get another +20 Store TP, It's not gonna drop you to a 5hit, it's just gonna make your 6-hit Weapon skill ready at 112TP instead of 100. (this was for a drg/sam, but apply's generally to other 2-hander's)


EDIT: Attack is MOSTLY always useful

[FailureMidgard]

I'm not gonna flat out argue against math I haven't seen - but I'd like to see it, as I'm curious which jobs are the best, and worst at feeding a mob TP.

TP fed can mean many things though, when you start getting into JAs, WS and whatever you're fighting...

Sure, I'll repost it. Going to make some assumptions though on gear and such, though you can feel free to disagree with them:
1. Putting Sam in full Usu (zomg Subtle Blow on gloves).
2. 2xMarch, Haste, Auspice. 95% Accuracy. Auspice.
3. Attk/Str Taipan vs 5hit Keitonotachi.
4. Using normal h2h, Mnk blows everything away with footwork...
5. Not sure how Asuran works on TP fed. My understanding is it's the exact same as 2 punches though (assuming the first 2 hits land).

Ok, so, moving onto stats:
Base TP/hit: Sam12.2, Mnk5.2(4.7kick?)
Base Delay: Sam464, Mnk377
Haste: Sam55(19+15+21), Mnk61(25+15+21)
DA Rate: Sam+5, Mnk+5(Kick+15)
Subtle Blow: Sam35, Mnk45

Adjusted delay:
Sam: 464 * .45 = 208.8
Mnk = 377 * .39 = 147.03

Hits/sec:
Sam: [(1/208.8 )*1.05*.95]*60 = .2866
Mnk: [(2/147.03)*1.05*.95]*60 = .8141
Kick: [(.15/147.03)*.95]*60 = .0582

TP fed/sec:
Sam: .2866*(12.2+3)*.65 = 2.832
Mnk: .8141*(5.2+3)*.55 = 3.672
Kick: .0582*(4.7+3)*.55 = .246
MnkTotal: 3.672+.246 = 3.918

WS/sec:
Sam: .2866/4 = .07165
Mnk: (.8141+.0582)/17 = .05131

WS TP fed/sec:
Sam: .07165*(12.2+3)*.70 = .7624
Mnk: .05131*(5.2+5.2+3+3)*.55 = .4628
Meditate: 1.5/150*(12.2+3)*.70 = .1064
SamTotal: .7624+.1064 = .8688

Total TP/sec:
Sam: 2.832 + .8688 = 3.7008
Mnk: 3.918 + .4628 = 4.3808

Mnk is feeding significantly more TP. Let's give the Mnk Penance: 4.3808*.75 = 3.2856. With 50% uptime as a single mnk, (3.2856+4.3808 )/2 = 3.8332.

Really though, I think I'm being favorable to the mnk. The sam, if he wanted, could gain more SB than the mnk (as the mnk is already 5 away from cap anyway...monk's roll hugely favors the sam as well). I left the mnk WSing in usu hands + BB, but removed Usu from the sam.

Anyway, if you add a 2nd DD at all, penance5/5 will put mnk as the favored with the math I did above. And again, if you use footwork, your TP fed is insanely low that nobody else can even begin to compete. But ya, Subtle Blow covers for the insane TP that you would feed without it, it doesn't lower from a near-equal baseline.

[Francisco]

The OA3 for MNK is going to be one heck of a lot stronger than the STR/Attack. The OA3 as others have said is extreamly strong on MNK.

The thing about OA3 with MNK is, it probably won't improve with Footwork at all post 80. Adjusting the DMG/Delay on it won't effect footwork - so unless they make it OA4, or add something like Haste or Kick Attacks - the only boost to this post 80 will be through more H2H skill and (unlikely next cap), better Kick Boots.

If the paths continue, we'll probably be looking at something like DMG:+26 Delay:+61 STR+8 Attack+20 for the level 85 weapon.

[Francisco]

They could even out the OA2/3 distribution a bit more.

There's no precedent, but I doubt it.

Also - if 3x procs on Footwork, it just goes towards 2x, right? Pretty sure someone posted you can't kick thrice in one round.

[Innuendo]

The thing about OA3 with MNK is, it probably won't improve with Footwork at all post 80. Adjusting the DMG/Delay on it won't effect footwork - so unless they make it OA4, or add something like Haste or Kick Attacks - the only boost to this post 80 will be through more H2H skill and (unlikely next cap), better Kick Boots.

If the paths continue, we'll probably be looking at something like DMG:+26 Delay:+61 STR+8 Attack+20 for the level 85 weapon.

How would claws like that compare with OA3? I'm just wondering whether it'd be worth the massive timesink of an OA3 or if they'll be useless after the cap raises.

[Plow]

There's no precedent, but I doubt it.

Also - if 3x procs on Footwork, it just goes towards 2x, right? Pretty sure someone posted you can't kick thrice in one round.

Correct, it basically just gives ~70% or whatever double attack rate with footwork.

It's not a terrible thing, as it means da/ka gear isn't taking away triple procs directly, but obviously it would still be stronger if it could kick three times.

If they go to oa4 it'll get pretty crazy as you'll be pushing 80% from weapon and being a monk alone.

[Francisco]

How would claws like that compare with OA3? I'm just wondering whether it'd be worth the massive timesink of an OA3 or if they'll be useless after the cap raises.

DMG: 67 Delay: 180 on each hand, plus 8 STR and 20 Attack... kicks would be DMG: 41

vs

DMG: 94 Delay: 480... plus 45~50 Attack, something like 70-80% double attack rate, minus what you lose in gear choices...

Honestly not sure how that would stack up - but I don't believe OA2-3 Footwork will be optimal when all is said and done.