Is it still Sam or gtfo?

[Francisco]

Correct, it basically just gives ~70% or whatever double attack rate with footwork.

It's not a terrible thing, as it means da/ka gear isn't taking away triple procs directly, but obviously it would still be stronger if it could kick three times.

If they go to oa4 it'll get pretty crazy as you'll be pushing 80% from weapon and being a monk alone.

OA3 is 50/30/20 right (and really 50/50 with Footwork... upped to 65 with Kick Trait and merits, 70 with Brutal, and more if you wear Kick Pants for some reason)?

[Plow]

I thought it was 30/50/20?

[rog]

I thought it was 30/50/20?

Ridill/mk/etc are, but not magian oa3 weapons.

[Onorgul]

OA3 is 50/30/20 right (and really 50/50 with Footwork... upped to 65 with Kick Trait and merits, 70 with Brutal, and more if you wear Kick Pants for some reason)?

Uh... it's closer to an 80% double rate for me, Fran, and that's in Byakko's Haidate and subbing Ninja. Stick with your Taipans if you want to, Footwork can be a real nuisance to deal with (when Lugarhoo decides to spam Fevered Pitch and Dispels it 30 seconds after you last used it, for instance). That's the thing, people forget that Footwork and Ursine Claws are not an instant iWin button; it comes with a long series of limitations and provisos. Personally, I still prefer it just because of the TP feed, but as you know, I've got both Taipan Fangs and Ursine Claws because I like flexibility and I hedge my bets when I can.

[Thorny]

The OA3 for MNK is going to be one heck of a lot stronger than the STR/Attack. The OA3 as others have said is extreamly strong on MNK.

Mouthbreather.

I have good gear and do good damage.

/cookie. You're still a mouthbreather.

PDT/MDT stuff

Both can cap MDT with shadow ring and shellra 5, though SAM can get a tiny bit more MDB in. If the MNK didn't use ASA pants on PDT, SAM gains 2% on legs/feet and 4% on back. MNK gains 5% on waist(Black Belt, how did nobody point this out yet?). You're comparing 1% PDT to shadow mantle.. pretty sure MNK wins in that department, 0% PDT difference with free shadow mantle if you use ASA on pdt. If you're macroing in terra's with a decent set, either job will cap so Eisen Grip is irrelevant unless you TP in it.. wouldn't say that's the best plan ever though since many setups require rose strap. If you were to do that it becomes 3% PDT vs shadow mantle, which is less clear-cut, but mnk still has a 400 hp advantage. I'm not even going to begin to argue counterstance/perfect counter vs seigan because it's fucking impossible, but having tanked on both I much prefer CS/PC due to not having my casttime fucked up whenever I ride hasso or lag while cancelling seigan.

[Zirk]

I much prefer CS/PC due to not having my casttime fucked up whenever I ride hasso or lag while cancelling seigan.

	<!-- Utsusemi Casts -->
	
		<if spell="Utsusemi: Ichi">
			<if buffactive="Hasso">
				<action type="command">cancel 353</action>
				<action type="equip" when="precast" set="Reduction"/>
				<action type="precastdelay" delay="0.5"/>
				<action type="midcastdelay" delay="3.0"/>
				<action type="equip" when="midcast" set="Utsusemi"/>
			</if>
			
			<elseif buffactive="Seigan">
				<action type="command">cancel 354</action>
				<action type="equip" when="precast" set="Reduction"/>
				<action type="precastdelay" delay="0.5"/>
				<action type="midcastdelay" delay="3.0"/>
				<action type="equip" when="midcast" set="Utsusemi"/>
			</elseif>
			
			<else>
				<action type="equip" when="precast" set="Reduction"/>
				<action type="precastdelay" delay="0.0"/>
				<action type="midcastdelay" delay="3.0"/>
				<action type="equip" when="midcast" set="Utsusemi"/>
			</else>
		</if>

With this my seigan/hasso's always get canceled before the Utsusemi cast even starts, so you don't get the massive long cast time. The extra half second delay really isn't that noticeable and lets you use hasso without fear, even for like a 20 second burst when you don't have hate.

[Thorny]

I know how to set spellcast up, but a half second delay is still a half second delay ;x That's +12.5% casttime on ichi, 33% on ni. It's soemthing that needs to be taken into consideration when comparing the 2 jobs. Personally, though both are equally geared for me, rarely/never see a reason to use SAM over MNK for tanking.

[Francisco]

Mouthbreather.

I've never once breathed through my mouth.

On a related note, if I have a sinus cold and need to run to the point that I'm breathe heavily, stay away. It gets pretty gross.

[FailureMidgard]

Both can cap MDT with shadow ring and shellra 5, though SAM can get a tiny bit more MDB in. If the MNK didn't use ASA pants on PDT, SAM gains 2% on legs/feet and 4% on back. MNK gains 5% on waist(Black Belt, how did nobody point this out yet?). You're comparing 1% PDT to shadow mantle.. pretty sure MNK wins in that department, 0% PDT difference with free shadow mantle if you use ASA on pdt. If you're macroing in terra's with a decent set, either job will cap so Eisen Grip is irrelevant unless you TP in it.. wouldn't say that's the best plan ever though since many setups require rose strap. If you were to do that it becomes 3% PDT vs shadow mantle, which is less clear-cut, but mnk still has a 400 hp advantage. I'm not even going to begin to argue counterstance/perfect counter vs seigan because it's fucking impossible, but having tanked on both I much prefer CS/PC due to not having my casttime fucked up whenever I ride hasso or lag while cancelling seigan.

Yea, as I said, I forgot about some MDT stuff added recently, didn't think Mnk could do well without that.
As for job preference, I think it depends a lot on the mob. There's no way in hell I'd choose mnk over sam for Tiamat, and I think you'd be crazy to do so just due to Tiamat's counters. Penance uptime being significantly increased due to not caring about air-time would be a benefit for mnk, but I'd still prefer sam (and again, with just 1 melee on a mob, even with capped penance, a mnk feeds more than a sam). (Also, is it safe to counter-stance on Tia? She already crits me for like 750 during mighty strikes with PDT on I think?). I'd also prefer sam on Skoll, on Carabosse, on Ruminator, on Mictcorseman, etc. I'm not really gonna go list every single 1. Then theres a lot of fights that I feel are really neutral, HP is a nice buffer to have, but really isn't even remotely near necessary. Then of course there's Khalamari, where I'd tank my mnk over my relic, but those fights to me feel few and far between.


Also, Francisco, no comment on your precious subtle blow?

[Francisco]

Also, Francisco, no comment on your precious subtle blow?

I rarely comment on math - and just accept it, because if I try to discuss it I wind up looking like an idiot. I'm pretty surprised it works out that way - and wonder if further Subtle Blow traits would tip the scales in favor of MNK...

Also, I didn't consider the Subtle Blow from /NIN.

I'm not going to ask for more math, but do you know off hand: are MNK/NIN, SAM/NIN and NIN/whatever the three best jobs as far as givning a mob TP? Do you know which job is generally the worst? DRK? RNG? DRG?

[darkhorror]

Footwork MNK get's a large boost from SAM roll. With luck can go from 7 or 8 hit to 5 hit. Due to MNK getting full tp from 2 hits when using WS. Would be more like a SAM going from 6 or 7 hit to 4 hit, if you get a great roll.

A normal footwork MNK with OA2-3 claws will most likely have 7 hit and 75% DA rate.

[Greatguardian]

You can 6-hit with footwork on Mnk/Nin fairly easily even without any Usukane. Adding Usu body to the mix just makes it that much easier.

[FailureMidgard]

I rarely comment on math - and just accept it, because if I try to discuss it I wind up looking like an idiot. I'm pretty surprised it works out that way - and wonder if further Subtle Blow traits would tip the scales in favor of MNK...

Also, I didn't consider the Subtle Blow from /NIN.

I'm not going to ask for more math, but do you know off hand: are MNK/NIN, SAM/NIN and NIN/whatever the three best jobs as far as givning a mob TP? Do you know which job is generally the worst? DRK? RNG? DRG?

Ya, I'm just kinda assuming that generally if you care about TP fed, you're either WS-only as a DD, or likely tanking /nin. Salvage Chariots may be one of the few exceptions to that, but honestly, we never cared about TP fed on them, we had 3 melee (not /nin) + thf fulltime on them at times...for something like Tiamat though, I've been 1 of the 2 tanks for most our recent kills, and I don't see how anyone can even argue that /war is better than /nin (though, with more curing required, I'm sure I could still tank it /war).

I'm not going to do math as detailed as that for every job. In general, the faster you swing, the more TP you feed. Monk and Dual-wielders have the added penalty of their WSes giving TP equal to 2 hits instead of just 1 (assuming the first 2, full TP return hits land), but they generally have native Subtle Blow. Honestly, Subtle Blow gear aside, Sam probably feeds more TP than any other DD/nin (Since GKs are the fastest 2h weapons out there). However, the "sweet spot" on the TP-gain curve is also the "sweet spot" for mob TP gain as well. If I had to guess, Sam will feed barely more TP than War/Drk/Drg (assuming /nin), but not by a very large margin (and meditate kinda gives the mob TP too, heh), but IMO, Sam also has better defensive options than any of those 3 (mnk being the only other DD that has really good defensive options).
That being said, a lot of people I know (DRG, WAR, and DRK) would rather switch to Sam if they are forced to /nin than stay on another job.

Also, I did assume Auspice, but I don't see why you wouldn't have a WHM for shell5, that, good barspells, yada yada on a lot of these fights. Anyway, the MNK I did math for with Auspice was at 45% Subtle Blow, the Sam was at 35%. The sam is going to relatively get more benefit from the same Subtle Blow amount added than the mnk, and the mnk is going to cap out after 5% more. The Sam is also guaranteed 5% more at lvl 90 from SJ.

Anyway, I'd drop ninja out of that list. It's going to be the absolute worst for TP fed without Penance (Even with the extra 5% over mnk - I am accounting for merits, mnk has BB). Penance/Footwork are the redeeming factors for mnk TP feed.
And really, if you want to limit TP on a mob, you should be using a Footwork mnk, hands down, no questions asked. It's really silly how little TP it gives...

[Aerynlia]

Level both MNK and SAM. I prefer MNK but if you have 4 melees on a mob, I don't think you really care that much about how much TP you are feeding it.

[darkhorror]

There are a couple things in those calculations first is that base delay for MNK should be 361 as taipan fangs are +61 delay. Also what it looks like to me is the reason that MNK is feeding more TP is due to the extra haste you have there for MNK. You have the MNK with it's extra haste giving it 15% faster hit rate, and then in the end giving 18% more TP.

But yeah it's not too surprising to see the TP difference between SAM and MNK.

[darkhorror]

You can 6-hit with footwork on Mnk/Nin fairly easily even without any Usukane. Adding Usu body to the mix just makes it that much easier.

How the heck would it be "easy" without any Usukane, given that you don't want to totally gimp yourself for just store TP?

[Ashira]

Best healer and tank, as always, depends on the mob/situation.

WHM updates have made it by far the best healer, and RDMs should be doing other shit anyway.

I'm not going to argue about the DD stuff - to me all DD are still the same. Good DD help kill things fast, bad DD die fast.

[FailureMidgard]

There are a couple things in those calculations first is that base delay for MNK should be 361 as taipan fangs are +61 delay. Also what it looks like to me is the reason that MNK is feeding more TP is due to the extra haste you have there for MNK. You have the MNK with it's extra haste giving it 15% faster hit rate, and then in the end giving 18% more TP.

But yeah it's not too surprising to see the TP difference between SAM and MNK.

Wow fuck me, I put the attack+16 as delay+16, haha. In any case, that's going to increase TP fed by the monk, not lower it. You're both swinging faster (for more flat +3 TPs given) and increasing TPgain/delay ratio.

Also, you can't sit here and use the single biggest advantage mnk has going for it's offense and knock it off. That capped gear haste is what allows a mnk to compete with other DDs. Put a mnk in a Brown Belt, and the job just went from competitive to pretty shitty. Yea, I could put the Sam in Dusk+1, etc, etc, but the results will still have the mnk feeding more prepenance. Also, realize the Sam can use Failnaught for very little dmg loss and +5 Subtle Blow, and Ninurtas (I only say this because I will very likely have one in the near future and would most definitely use it over Bullwhip for /nin tanking). But yes, you're entirely correct that the mnk swinging faster is what feeds more TP...however that is 100% of why people are wrong in their assumptions that mnk feeds less TP...

[drwaffles]

I think with the Tiamat example you basically outlined the three main mob characteristics that would make SAM a more attractive option than MNK for tanking: high defence (such that Gekko will shine), ability to counter, and potential to one-shot with Counterstance up (which renders it unusable in most cases). Another factor to take into consideration is, of course, blunt damage resistance. Outside of mobs with those sorts of characteristics, I'd prefer a MNK tank in almost every situation where a melee-tank is viable.

[Darkmagi]

How the heck would it be "easy" without any Usukane, given that you don't want to totally gimp yourself for just store TP?

Cobra harness. Shut the fuck up.
Edit: or ACP body