Is it still Sam or gtfo?

[Greatguardian]

How the heck would it be "easy" without any Usukane, given that you don't want to totally gimp yourself for just store TP?

Need 12 STP in TP and WS in Brutal/Rajas to 6-hit. Rajas + Brutal + Cobra Unit harness if you want the absolute easiest 6-hit you can make. If you actually have a Brisk Mask and use it properly (Brisk mask+Poise shoes+B haidate+BB = 26% haste), you can get away with Rajas+Brutal+ChivChain+Ecphoria+Brisk and have a pretty damn nice TP set, and the ability to WS in whatever the hell you want.

Edit: beaten

[Konda]

the thing people are ignoring is that OA3 footwork has been screaming "I'M GOING TO BE NERFEDDDDDDD!!1!" ever since people discovered they worked together.

Along with the lack of playtime I have at the minute, that's the whole 9 NMs and 3000+ mobs makes it seem like a pretty pointless endeavour. Any additional Martial Arts traits is probably going to swing things back in favour of non-footwork.

@pdt on mnk: straight PDT, MNK can get more than SAM without swapping weapon (both hit 50% with E.staff) because BB has -5% and SAM can't get anything in waist. However, a straight PDT set isnt the best idea because losing capped counter is going to do more harm than good.

With no pdt set on MNK, you're countering ~60% of melee swings (with capped acc). Perfect Counter has just reduced damage mnk takes while tanking significantly, and is a very large feather in MNK's cap for tanking.

[Darkmagi]

PDT sets are generally used when you can't rely on counter for MNK.

[Dooom]

the thing people are ignoring is that OA3 footwork has been screaming "I'M GOING TO BE NERFEDDDDDDD!!1!" ever since people discovered they worked together.

Counter-argument: there has been several maints since they were introduced, none of which touched Footwork + OA3 claws. If it gets nerfed then it gets nerfed, if it doesn't then woo, either way I'm still having oodles of fun with it.

[Khajit]

I just thought. Why doesn't that work with Faiths? Or does it and noone tested?

[Cream Soda]

When it comes to mnk vs sam, if I can't full time hasso and ride zerk on /war , then I'm going mnk

[Onorgul]

the thing people are ignoring is that OA3 footwork has been screaming "I'M GOING TO BE NERFEDDDDDDD!!1!" ever since people discovered they worked together.

Not really. The limitations involved in using Footwork are pretty steep and the advantage over standard Hand-to-Hand is touchy at best (if you end up getting much over 100% TP, you're losing a lot of your advantage because Footwork is all about weaponskills). And SE has to be aware of the nature of Footwork and OAX claws, they read forums and more than a few people have called GMs on the subject. Footwork and Ursine Claws are really good, but they're not broken like, say, 2H weapons were when they were first adjusted.

[Cream Soda]

I just thought. Why doesn't that work with Faiths? Or does it and noone tested?

Doesn't

[FailureMidgard]

I think with the Tiamat example you basically outlined the three main mob characteristics that would make SAM a more attractive option than MNK for tanking: high defence (such that Gekko will shine), ability to counter, and potential to one-shot with Counterstance up (which renders it unusable in most cases). Another factor to take into consideration is, of course, blunt damage resistance. Outside of mobs with those sorts of characteristics, I'd prefer a MNK tank in almost every situation where a melee-tank is viable.

I'd prefer Sam on anything with a hate reset, esp as a solo tank (Ruminator, also occurs on Tiamat). I basically re-cap hate instantly with 2hr, or still much faster if meditate is up/near up (and can also Hasso if you aren't capping right away). I've actually started sitting on meditate cooldown on Ruminator, he 2hrs so often anyway, I lose very little time on it, and it lets me get hate back faster, esp later in the fight with blm/nins that are nuking. And again, Carabosse I'd prefer Sam due to mute. Also, there's a lot of mobs that counter.

Sam is also better on Corse for the obvious reason (Meditate/Sekka), and while I agree with Thorny to duo him, I'd use rdm+rdm ideally, it uses less total Abyssea time to trio it with bard, rdm, sam IMO (though its a little more dependent on what spells he casts, and if he just casts drains while you're redoing shadows, it can draw it out). But also I feel other mobs fall into this category like Lambton (and any worm, between Dessication and Extreme Purgation, I think mnk is pretty weak).

Then there's a ton of mobs where I think what job you prefer is completely irrelevant. Extra HP is nice, don't get me wrong, but there's little to no threat of death on all sorts of things. First time I went to fight Minhocao, people made it sound like it was super hard and I needed a ton of HP to survive, so I went mnk. Man, that was stupid of me (also, see worm comment above). Granted, my mnk and sam aren't equally geared, but I don't see how extra HP helps, at all. I could list most mobs that'd fall into this category, and the only thing I'd choose job based on is damage output really (and with 2 dd/nin, I think Sam+Mnk is a nice combo for random SCs going off quite often, on accident, or sam+sam, but rarely would I choose mnk+mnk). Anyway, I still think most mobs fall into this category, take the best DD you have, but I do feel outside of that, more fights favor Sam than Mnk. And maybe I'm spoiled and have decent mages, but on a lot of fights, I really don't feel at risk of dying...

[CDF]

Not really. The limitations involved in using Footwork are pretty steep and the advantage over standard Hand-to-Hand is touchy at best (if you end up getting much over 100% TP, you're losing a lot of your advantage because Footwork is all about weaponskills). And SE has to be aware of the nature of Footwork and OAX claws, they read forums and more than a few people have called GMs on the subject. Footwork and Ursine Claws are really good, but they're not broken like, say, 2H weapons were when they were first adjusted.

SE also "had" to be aware of Magian OAT not even working correctly with H2H, but it wasn't fixed until the next update.

Having Magian multi-hit work with Footwork seems purposeful (see virtue weapons), but I wouldn't be surprised if the effective multi-hit rate with Footwork was adjusted downward. (I don't consider it broken; let kids have their fun.)

[Taruking]

let's see how long we can make the rdm tanking isn't dead discusssion last, where is taruking.

Right, just spam cure4 40 times for CE, it's not like it goes through a full mp bar in 30 seconds or anything like that.

Learn how to put Fast Cast to good use. If you wanna use cure cheat on RDM, Cure III is way more mp efficient than Cure IV.

CE spell nerf does not only affect RDM. Why do you think PLD sub RDM and NIN sub DRK in the first place? There is no significant difference between PLD, RDM and NIN in unengaged fight, learn how to play the game.

[darkhorror]

Need 12 STP in TP and WS in Brutal/Rajas to 6-hit. Rajas + Brutal + Cobra Unit harness if you want the absolute easiest 6-hit you can make. If you actually have a Brisk Mask and use it properly (Brisk mask+Poise shoes+B haidate+BB = 26% haste), you can get away with Rajas+Brutal+ChivChain+Ecphoria+Brisk and have a pretty damn nice TP set, and the ability to WS in whatever the hell you want.

Edit: beaten

You mean for 7 hit build.

[Mercilessturtle]

If you actually have a Brisk Mask and use it properly (Brisk mask+Poise shoes+B haidate+BB = 26% haste), you can get away with Rajas+Brutal+ChivChain+Ecphoria+Brisk and have a pretty damn nice TP set, and the ability to WS in whatever the hell you want.

Except that you gave up faith torque. Better off getting the extra 2 store tp from w tath.

[Thorny]

Tiamat.. maybe a good example of SAM tank winning. However, using footwork with OA3(I know, I know, I just called it meh, but situational) will feed significantly less tp than a SAM, get countered a similar rate, and produce decent numbers. Counterstance floors defense, it doesn't give mob any magical boost.. do we know what tiamat's base damage is? Not going to say I've tanked it on MNK, but the benefits of def are pretty null if he's near attack capped already, even moreso during crits.. I still don't think it's as clear cut as you say it is.

We both have our styles and are a bit biased because we enjoy the jobs we're arguing for, and when it comes down to it both will do the job, but I'm still not seeing any reason to use SAM tank unless the mob has blunt resistance or extraordinarily high defense.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Learn how to put Fast Cast to good use. If you wanna use cure cheat on RDM, Cure III is way more mp efficient than Cure IV.

CE spell nerf does not only affect RDM. Why do you think PLD sub RDM and NIN sub DRK in the first place? There is no significant difference between PLD, RDM and NIN in unengaged fight, learn how to play the game.

Correction: there's no significant difference between the survivability of PLD and a RDM in an unengaged fight, there's no plenty of difference between their enmity generation. Rampart, Sentinel, Shield Bash, Flash, and Divine Emblem would like a word with you.

Most of the people I used to play with would happily vouch for how unnecessarily obsessed I was with RDM tanking, but I've moved on. I suggest you do he same.

Low-man situations where hate is more or less irrelevant(RDM, RDM, SMN trio used above, for example) notwithstanding, RDM is obviously still preferred in said instances.

[FailureMidgard]

Tiamat.. maybe a good example of SAM tank winning. However, using footwork with OA3(I know, I know, I just called it meh, but situational) will feed significantly less tp than a SAM, get countered a similar rate, and produce decent numbers. Counterstance floors defense, it doesn't give mob any magical boost.. do we know what tiamat's base damage is? Not going to say I've tanked it on MNK, but the benefits of def are pretty null if he's near attack capped already, even moreso during crits.. I still don't think it's as clear cut as you say it is.

Ya, I'm aware how counter-stance works, and I think my original comment on that was a question, 'cause I have no idea if she has an insanely high base dmg value, or is just attack capped. My main argument against mnk (traditional) on tiamat is her counters, not counterstance, but even if it is just some additional damage, it kinda nullifies the HP boost.

Also, I'm not sure how you think an OA3 will get countered similar rate as a Sam? Isn't that kinda a contradiction in itself? It may be a decent medium between h2h mnk and sam though (I'm actually honestly not sure on the delay on footwork). But you're also losing damage. Also, meditate is a nice boost for Sam on Tiamat, unless it's being instantly force landed every time. And again, I feel a Sam can recap easier after a Roar than a Mnk can. Can a mnk tank it with footwork? I'm sure, but I don't think it's ideal.

We both have our styles and are a bit biased because we enjoy the jobs we're arguing for, and when it comes down to it both will do the job, but I'm still not seeing any reason to use SAM tank unless the mob has blunt resistance or extraordinarily high defense.

Yea, and Amano kinda changes things for me, personally (and again, I'll prolly end up with a Ninurtas here soon, which helps the whole Subtle Blow thing when applicable), and I'm not even saying to use Sam over Mnk. I'm saying that the HP boost is nice, but I think on a lot of fights it's minor, and you should take the best DD/player you have available (Sam, Mnk, War, Drk) rather than the job, and while I'm sure a mnk can do fine and succeed on a lot of the fights I listed, I think some of them Sam still has other benefits over mnk (Like for Skoll, I think Sam is better due to counters and the fact you end up with Hasso up for half the fight with 2 DDs...I also see mnks having more accuracy issues there, seems to be one of the highest evasion mobs in the game I've fought...). But ya, I'm not trying to bash Mnk.

[Thorny]

OA3 doesn't actually hit three times, and unless I'm missing something zanshin procs on counters and is ~75%? Primary risk associated with counters is dying to them back to back, no? For the most part, unless you're going to debate against bringing a WHM at all, your damage concern is dying before a cure goes off as opposed to running them out of mp.

I agree that you should bring the player not the job, but it's still relevant to me since I have both on relatively even footing.

[FailureMidgard]

OA3 doesn't actually hit three times, and unless I'm missing something zanshin procs on counters and is ~75%? Primary risk associated with counters is dying to them back to back, no? For the most part, unless you're going to debate against bringing a WHM at all, your damage concern is dying before a cure goes off as opposed to running them out of mp.

Eh, it can cause problems without back-to-back counters (though that's still a risk). She can DA, and as I said, hits me with Mighty Strikes for well over 700. Admittedly, mnks counterstance if she is already attack capped, can mitigate some things potentially, but it can knock off your shadows at a bad time, hit your last shadow as you were about to start Ichi, DAs you during Mighty Strikes (or slow wears off for a second at a bad time). Again, I'm sure a mnk can do it, I just don't think a traditional mnk is better than a sam.

[Greatguardian]

Except that you gave up faith torque. Better off getting the extra 2 store tp from w tath.

Good point. I blame a mental block on the damn thing after 0/20 lowman kills >.>'. Also, @Darkhorror, that's a 6-hit build. Tornado Kick is a 28TP return with footwork active =/.

[Lyramion]

Need 12 STP in TP and WS in Brutal/Rajas to 6-hit. Rajas + Brutal + Cobra Unit harness if you want the absolute easiest 6-hit you can make. If you actually have a Brisk Mask and use it properly (Brisk mask+Poise shoes+B haidate+BB = 26% haste), you can get away with Rajas+Brutal+ChivChain+Ecphoria+Brisk and have a pretty damn nice TP set, and the ability to WS in whatever the hell you want.

I can confirm you will already have a TornadoKick+5Hits Setup with only 10 Store TP if you keep the Store TP on full time.

I am currently using a cheap/low effort setup of APC body, Rajas and Brutal for Store TP only and get 100 TP every time - unless a Tornado Kick hit misses. Haste consists of Aurore Hat, BB, B.Haidate and Poise Latent. Hate the Aurore hat but sadly it seems the best option after Usu mask.