SC2 E-Sports Thread

[GRT]

although i have to say, this is gonna make blizz take a long hard look at the zerg again imo, their late game macro is just out of control

the balance needs to be more asymmetrical

[Serif]

Do not a lot of Terran target Overlords? It seems like he could of harassed FD with a few vikings to kill off some Overlords to keep FD's army count low? Or at least pre occupy some of his minerals and larvae on remaking lords.

[Falaras]

Depends what tech route you are going and what kind of play. A lot of terrans just build a Factory and stop there so no production structure for a viking, plus once you get an OL or two they will protect them anyways. If you are going drop heavy though the vikings are just crucial because you need to clear out the map vision to get the drops into the base.

[Gryffes]

although i have to say, this is gonna make blizz take a long hard look at the zerg again imo, their late game macro is just out of control

the balance needs to be more asymmetrical

I lolled. Fruitdealer was 5 base vs 2 in game 1 and still almost lost and 4 base vs 2 in game 2 and still almost lost.
Boxer was amazing, and came close to winning both games despite being down so many bases.

TLDR: Just cuz 1 guy lost doesnt mean a matchup isn't balanced. We won't know if the current patch is anywhere near balanced for another 3 months.

[GRT]

that's what i'm referring to, it's just so easy for zerg to expand in late game because their army is so mobile, and can defend bases even when they are far apart, watch game 1 and see how ineffective Boxer's drops are, if zerg dropped on the similarly positioned terran expansion there's no way terran can save it so easily

plus zergs get so much more out of every expansion, because every new hatchery is just a whole base worth of production capacity, whereas terrans and protoss have to build new production facilities on top of the expansions to get the same result

[GRT]

and i'm not even talking about the new zerg buffs, zergs have ALWAYS had this strong late game macro, it's just nobody before fruitdealer has been able to deal with the race's early game weakness

like i said, the balance needs to be more asymmetrical, instead of having a strong late game to make up for a weak early game

[Gryffes]

Zerg have had strategies to counter terran/toss for months, and suddenly terran in particular has to relearn the matchup so arguing that it's not balanced now when zerg has such a time lead on it is really silly.

[GRT]

huh? what are you talking about? doesn't seem to relate to what i said at all

[Gryffes]

You don't get it?

Zerg has had months of countering terran, and suddenly the matchup gets a big buff in their favour - all their old strategies are still good - just better, there is no real relearning to do.

Terran on the other hand has to tear up all their build orders and strategies and start from scratch.
Arguing for buffs/nerfs before Terran has readjusted to the matchup is pointless.

[GRT]

i'm not talking about unit to unit matchup though, i'm tlaking about macro, that hasn't changed

[GRT]

it has been a concern since beta -- it was even the whole argument terran and toss players had against zergs' whining about being underpowered: "your units aren't supposed to be strong, because you can make SO MANY OF THEM"

but that point has largely been moot because zerg had trouble getting there in the first place... and now they are starting to get there, and that late game strength is starting to be a real concern, and not just on paper, as evident by what fruitdealer pulled off right under blizz's nose

[altwight]

anywhere i can watch the boxer vs fruitdealer match up? was out camping missed it.

[altwight]

it has been a concern since beta -- it was even the whole argument terran and toss players had against zergs' whining about being underpowered: "your units aren't supposed to be strong, because you can make SO MANY OF THEM"

but that point has largely been moot because zerg had trouble getting there in the first place... and now they are starting to get there, and that late game strength is starting to be a real concern, and not just on paper, as evident by what fruitdealer pulled off right under blizz's nose

touching up on your argument about zerg's macro.

generally from what I would think if you constantly pressure zerg keeping them from 200/200 causing them to use their larva instead of letting them sit at 200/200 building up another 100 larva then things seem pretty even.

like i said though, if you let zerg build up without attacking you're going to lose most of the time.

i've found that once zerg gets 3 bases they hit the tipping point of mass larva which enables them to throw away their army on you and then rebuild another to finish you off.

[GRT]

so, watch that white-ra vs dimaga game 1, reinforces what i was saying, the late game zerg macro is impossible to contain

the toss moved his WHOLE army to kill the the naked expansion with the longest ground distance to the zerg main, and the zerg completely obliterated that army with a late reinforcement, neither terran nor toss can do something like that, and that's what makes zerg expansions so efficient and powerful



and that just the zerg using lings and mutas, neither buffed by the latest patch... since blizz addressed zerg early game weakness by buffing the roach and nerffing toss/terran harassement options, they need to look at that late game macro

[Bweigelt]

so, watch that white-ra vs dimaga game 1, reinforces what i was saying, the late game zerg macro is impossible to contain and that just the zerg using lings and mutas, neither buffed by the latest patch... since blizz addressed zerg early game weakness by buffing the roach and nerffing toss/terran harassement options, they need to look at that late game macro


The toss moved his WHOLE army to kill the the naked expansion with the longest ground distance to the zerg main, and the zerg completely obliterated that army with a late reinforcement, neither terran nor toss can do something like that, and that's what makes zerg expansions so efficient and powerful

That's how Z was in BW though too. It's just in SC2 the other races are used to being able to kill them in the first 10 minutes. Now they just have to start thinking differently so I think we will see Zerg dominate for a while the other races adapt to the changes in style.

[GRT]

how do they deal with that in BW? i never really followed it like i am following SC2 now

[Iku]

Search for Flash and Jaedong on youtube.

[Bweigelt]

how do they deal with that in BW? i never really followed it like i am following SC2 now

I really wouldn't be good at explaining it but basically Zerg wants to expand all over the map and they will do all sorts of tricks to allow this. The Terran wants to get his money composition on the other hand and start denying Zerg expo's and killing them before they get defilers out so they don't get overrun. Like Iku said watching a few games can really help to get a feel for this. Watching Julyzerg's games especially will really show how scary BW zerg was.

[GRT]

all i remember was they started making those huge maps where one choke defends 3 to 4 bases, i think that's what kinda turned it off for me

[GRT]

blizz released the blizzcon replays... including the FD vs Boxer showmatch

http://us.media.blizzard.com/blizzco...nt_replays.zip