SC2 E-Sports Thread

[Thunder]

Hatch first isn't all that "greedy" and risky. Ret said it himself, if you go pool first you don't have enough zergling production to hold the rush off and have ANY drones left to catch up. It's probably why Idra and ret go hatch first in steppes.

The double barracks -> more barracks thing vs zerg is definitely easier for the terran to execute than the zerg to defend because the ratio of unit/drone production is absolutely critical and you can't scout exactly what kind of rush it will be. Definitely short positions since you'd have spent your larva before you see them rallying marines/sending SCVs.

I probably need to do more thinking on it but it's pretty obvious terran has an advantage over zerg with the double barracks opening. As shown by the terrans raping zergs who spend all of their time practicing against it.

[Falaras]

Are you kidding lol? 6 pool on steppes doesn't have to do damage to be useful? If someone hard walls, and loses no workers, I'm pretty sure any gold+ player can't lose to a 6pool. A blind counter will end the game. A dual stalker build is closer (in terms of the potential for harass), but you don't get a free expansion with the pressure like Terran does. There aren't any blind counters to 2rax>expo (at least not yet), because scouting allows the build to change with no relative loss (relative meaning compared to what your opponent loses).

And I think you are misinterpreting when I say no sacrifice. Clearly every decision in the game involves a sacrifice, doing one thing means you aren't doing another. I meant in terms of relative position in the game. Economy wise, they come out at worst even and most likely ahead compared to other strategies. The only ones that net a stronger economy would be a straight up 1rax FE, but accounting for the extra costs incurred by the zerg from the pressure, the difference isn't that big. Clearly pressure wise, few other builds compete, forcing the zerg down very specific tech patterns. Finally, tech wise, considering the viability of a pure MMM army very late into the game, and the speed of the double techlab stim/shield upgrades, very little is given up.

Anyways I'm done with this. I mean no offense by this, but you always seem just a little too defensive about Terran stuff like this, despite noone making any real serious/controversial claims. And anyways, as a protoss, I don't really care enough about the TvZ matchup beyond the spectator perspective (of which my only gripe with the current state of things is the prevalence of the mostly unrelated, and incredibly uninteresting to watch SCV all-ins).

Have you ever watched Catz play on Steppes? He always six pools and has a follow up that means he literally has to do no damage for his 6 pool to pay off, it's all about map control so he can take the gold right away. And honestly people really overestimate MMM being a "good" army, it's not. MMM is a panic army where you need units now or a build you are forced in to by their build. TvP is the only match up where MMM is a good idea and that's only for the early/mid game, you need to be out of it before HTs hit the field. As far as the speed for the upgrades, getting upgrades fast always isn't the best. Delaying combat shields until you push is a really good idea that we will be seeing more and more as the game progresses (probably not stim for defensive reasons).

[Thunder]

I don't think a 6pool gives you map control for very long if you do 0 damage. Catz isn't that hot of a player(he's got the mechanics, sure, but is he capable of coming up sound strategies/tactics?), I doubt he's 6pooling on steppes because he's practiced it a lot and knows it works the best. Ret/idra on the other hand have said that after hours of practicing against terran 2rax all-in pressure on steppes hatch first is really powerful because of the extra larva.

And MMM not being that viable? <.< come on, every single terran that ever goes into mid/late game gets MMM at some point and sprinkles in tanks/thors/what-have you with that solid infantry base. Vs zerg it's pretty much MMM until you replace marauders with other armored units. Marines and marauders are both so good.. I can't believe you're belittling them as a terran

[Bweigelt]

You aren't going to get anywhere arguing with Falaras about T units or openings. He seems to live in some fantasy world where things work differently than for everyone else, like MMM not being a good army, Terran openings have to kill the zerg or they haven't done enough damage, Z is OP, etc..

[altwight]

CATZ ISN'T THAT HOT OF A PLAYER? LOL. just cause he doesn't practice 22/7 like ret and idra doesn't mean he's not too hot of a player. also, he did practice his 7pool* build on steppes a lot and it does infact work.

[Falaras]

I don't think a 6pool gives you map control for very long if you do 0 damage. Catz isn't that hot of a player(he's got the mechanics, sure, but is he capable of coming up sound strategies/tactics?), I doubt he's 6pooling on steppes because he's practiced it a lot and knows it works the best. Ret/idra on the other hand have said that after hours of practicing against terran 2rax all-in pressure on steppes hatch first is really powerful because of the extra larva.

And MMM not being that viable? <.< come on, every single terran that ever goes into mid/late game gets MMM at some point and sprinkles in tanks/thors/what-have you with that solid infantry base. Vs zerg it's pretty much MMM until you replace marauders with other armored units. Marines and marauders are both so good.. I can't believe you're belittling them as a terran

Catz is an insanely good player, just he hasn't had a good tournament win yet. He does 6 pool on steppes because that -is- what he practices, and he practices a lot. Catz also has came up with the 4 drone rush strategy which is also extremely good on certain maps so he is definitely capable of coming up with new strategies.

You don't go MMM, MMM stands for Marine Marauder Medivac if you didn't know, which means you get all of those units. TvZ is mainly Marine Tank, TvP is MMM into Banshee Thor or Marauder Tank, TvT is Marauder Tank with a sprinkle of Vikings, Medivacs, and Marines. Full on bio-play is a terrible way to be playing at the moment as terran unless you want to end the game with a stim timing push or some silly all in. Saying that TvZ is MMM with a sprinkle of tanks in my opinion is wrong because of how crucial those tanks are (Tanks keep the marines alive from Blings, marines keep the tanks alive from mutas) and usually you end up producing a ton of tanks anyways.

You aren't going to get anywhere arguing with Falaras about T units or openings. He seems to live in some fantasy world where things work differently than for everyone else, like MMM not being a good army, Terran openings have to kill the zerg or they haven't done enough damage, Z is OP, etc..

I've never called Zerg OP (and surely don't beleive zerg is OP). The rest of what you said is just you being an idiot as usual.

CATZ ISN'T THAT HOT OF A PLAYER? LOL. just cause he doesn't practice 22/7 like ret and idra doesn't mean he's not too hot of a player. also, he did practice his 7pool* build on steppes a lot and it does infact work.

I could swear it was six but seven works too.

[Thunder]

Ok, when I say MMM it's not ONLY MAKE BARACKS AND REACTOR STARPORTS LOL. Whenever I say it, read it, hear it, it's synonymous with bio because who seriously makes only marines, marauders, and medivacs. It's really annoying when half of your post is arguing semantics. Would it tickle your fancy if I told you when I sprinkle my ice cream I get like 30 god damn sprinkles on that bitch and thus I meant that terrans get like 30 tanks with their marine play? No, you'd be pretty annoyed.

CATZ ISN'T THAT HOT OF A PLAYER? LOL. just cause he doesn't practice 22/7 like ret and idra doesn't mean he's not too hot of a player. also, he did practice his 7pool* build on steppes a lot and it does infact work.

Do you expect to get anywhere in a discussion with an attitude like that? Am I wrong when I say that it's pretty obvious he's one of those mechanical players who doesn't think too much about actual gameplay/analysis. I get the vibe from him and his stream that he's just one of those players that play the game.
And... sure, 7pool works on steppes. But I think his "practice" of it didn't delve any deeper than laddering with it. Nearly all the terran in GSL make their wall on the bottom of the ramp specifically to beat some silly 6-8pool shenanigans on steppes.

[Falaras]

Ok, when I say MMM it's not ONLY MAKE BARACKS AND REACTOR STARPORTS LOL. Whenever I say it, read it, hear it, it's synonymous with bio because who seriously makes only marines, marauders, and medivacs. It's really annoying when half of your post is arguing semantics. Would it tickle your fancy if I told you when I sprinkle my ice cream I get like 30 god damn sprinkles on that bitch and thus I meant that terrans get like 30 tanks with their marine play? No, you'd be pretty annoyed.

Obviously a lot of this problem has come from the fact that we both use MMM differently. To me MMM is the early game opening against Protoss (in which you seriously only make marines, marauders, and medivacs) I mean if you want to just make MMM into getting one of those units as a part of your army it would be like calling 3 Gate Colossus simply a "3 gate" and leave out any mention of other units when really the build is about the colossus.
But at least now I can see where you are coming from talking about MMM as before I was just confused.

And... sure, 7pool works on steppes. But I think his "practice" of it didn't delve any deeper than laddering with it. Nearly all the terran in GSL make their wall on the bottom of the ramp specifically to beat some silly 6-8pool shenanigans on steppes.

Catz doesn't form builds on ladder, he has said multiple times that the ladder is the polishing step. He makes the build up, does tons of in house practicing to find out if its viable or not, does more in house practicing to make it good, starts using it on the ladder, then moves it to a tournament. Catz is also known for his 4 drone rush which really really punishes people that wall off so really you don't know what is going to happen.

[Thunder]

Semantics again oh my god! Kidding, but I think me calling bio MMM would be akin to saying the toss is going colossus when you really mean colossus + gateway units and not so much leaving off half of the name of a specific build. Buildings != unit comp. But this is all dumb so idc.

He talks about practicing/coming up with tactics/strategies on his streams? I watched his stream two times for the better part of the night and I couldn't help but think he's just one of those "token new guys" who's made it this far using only mechanics. And I further thought about it as.. someone who's only got the mechanical side of the game can go really far when the analytical/mindgame part of the game is still developing and wins can be decided by build orders alone.

Granted, I could be wrong since I've only watched like 2 and a half hours of his streaming so it's pretty harsh to judge but I've never heard of the guy doing/coming up with anything cool. In fact, that "4 drone rush" thing that destroys the SCV building the wall-in I've heard in either the GSL or Dreamhack when someone sent 2 drones and I'm so sure they gave credit to someone besides Catz. In fact, sending early drones to destroy the wall-in to get your 6-8pool in doesn't even sound that hard to come up with. Want to 6pool but fear the wall in? Stop the wall in.

I'll concede that I went out of line about Catz since, honestly, I just don't know enough about the guy. But a 7pool being anything close to the best opening for zerg on steppes is so.. not right, which is what made me say he sucks if that's what he's saying. We're talking tournament play by the way, since 6-8pooling is a different story in ladder.

[altwight]

sarcasm is sooooo obvious towards someone who's obviously biased.

[Falaras]

Semantics again oh my god! Kidding, but I think me calling bio MMM would be akin to saying the toss is going colossus when you really mean colossus + gateway units and not so much leaving off half of the name of a specific build. Buildings != unit comp. But this is all dumb so idc.

He talks about practicing/coming up with tactics/strategies on his streams? I watched his stream two times for the better part of the night and I couldn't help but think he's just one of those "token new guys" who's made it this far using only mechanics. And I further thought about it as.. someone who's only got the mechanical side of the game can go really far when the analytical/mindgame part of the game is still developing and wins can be decided by build orders alone.

Granted, I could be wrong since I've only watched like 2 and a half hours of his streaming so it's pretty harsh to judge but I've never heard of the guy doing/coming up with anything cool. In fact, that "4 drone rush" thing that destroys the SCV building the wall-in I've heard in either the GSL or Dreamhack when someone sent 2 drones and I'm so sure they gave credit to someone besides Catz. In fact, sending early drones to destroy the wall-in to get your 6-8pool in doesn't even sound that hard to come up with. Want to 6pool but fear the wall in? Stop the wall in.

I'll concede that I went out of line about Catz since, honestly, I just don't know enough about the guy. But a 7pool being anything close to the best opening for zerg on steppes is so.. not right, which is what made me say he sucks if that's what he's saying. We're talking tournament play by the way, since 6-8pooling is a different story in ladder.

Catz isn't a new guy, he's been playing since the beta and is the leader of Root who has some of the best american players out there (Drewbie, Kiwikaki). The 4 drone rush isn't done at the same time as the 7 pool either, it's one or the other. It gains a small advantange by forcing the other player to pull off 5 workers to deal with your 4 workers even if you don't manage to kill a worker. That said it is super easy to snipe workers with 4 drones if they are walling off. So basically if you fight Catz on Steppes you will either counter him by walling in, or not walling in, lol. The 4 drone rush was shown at the last MLG event and possibly ones before that, so depending on which GSL you saw someone do this it could very well be someone taking Catz build and making it their own (or just trying something different).

The seven pool isn't meant to end the game like a normal early pool is, that's why the opening is so powerful. You secure map control with lings while expanding to a gold and by the time your opponent is safe enough to push out the gold will have kicked in.

And yeah, they aren't done on conjunction, he either seven pools or drone rushes for early pressure.

[Thunder]

When I said "token new guy" I didn't mean he's new; I know his position in ROOT and what not. What I meant by that is like the randoms who show up to tournaments in SC2 and win because their mechanics are just solid with practice.

As for the 7pool securing map control to be able to expand to gold.. wat. I doubt it works any better than the thousands of 6-8pools that hit people every day on steppes. I seriously doubt if a zerg 7 pools a terran on steppes and the terran holds it off(you're saying the 7pool can do 0 damage and still be advantageous, yeah?) the zerg would be able to contain the terran long enough to catch back up. In fact, if a double rax can beat stuff like hatch first/gas-pool I can't imagine a zerg behind in drones and larvae would be able to do a thing.

Wouldn't it be just as easy for the terran to send one SCV to scout early as he normally would on steppes and be able to see the 4 drones or 7 pool? So, he can't counter the terran that walls in or the terran who doesn't because it's easier to scout the zerg than it is to surprise the terran.

I seriously doubt any of this working in a tournament with everyone being scared of getting cheesed out.

[Falaras]

When I said "token new guy" I didn't mean he's new; I know his position in ROOT and what not. What I meant by that is like the randoms who show up to tournaments in SC2 and win because their mechanics are just solid with practice.

As for the 7pool securing map control to be able to expand to gold.. wat. I doubt it works any better than the thousands of 6-8pools that hit people every day on steppes. I seriously doubt if a zerg 7 pools a terran on steppes and the terran holds it off(you're saying the 7pool can do 0 damage and still be advantageous, yeah?) the zerg would be able to contain the terran long enough to catch back up. In fact, if a double rax can beat stuff like hatch first/gas-pool I can't imagine a zerg behind in drones and larvae would be able to do a thing.

Wouldn't it be just as easy for the terran to send one SCV to scout early as he normally would on steppes and be able to see the 4 drones or 7 pool? So, he can't counter the terran that walls in or the terran who doesn't because it's easier to scout the zerg than it is to surprise the terran.

I seriously doubt any of this working in a tournament with everyone being scared of getting cheesed out.

Catz has done both of the builds at MLG and won with them, not to mention the massive amounts of ladder games he does it versus the players he would be facing at a LAN event. Scouting early is a good way to fight the build off for sure, its not a perfect build, but it doesn't guarantee you anything especially since the rush distance is so short the units would make it in before the wall off generally. It's not a normal 7 pool where you engage directly and they "hold it off" it is like playing with Mutalisks and just poking all over to keep the player busy and maybe pick off a marine or a worker while getting a high yield.

[Maguspk]

SlayersBoxer holding a fan sign covering his face at the beginning of MakaPrime v Nestea, his girlfriend was hitting him and he eventually lowered it with this little smirk, it was awesome. haha

[Sylvrdragon]

Lol. He was probably making fun of her cause Korean girls always cover their face when they notice that they're on camera.

[Falaras]

Jinro is definitely the most impressive terran I have ever seen, he has progressed leaps and bounds BEYOND what he was at the MLG Finals and he was amazing there.
Edit: Sup Code S. That second game was sad though.

[Thunder]

rofl@ that second game. If I could come up with a reason I'd be all over Polt throwing the game to Jinro on purpose!

[Falaras]

rofl@ that second game. If I could come up with a reason I'd be all over Polt throwing the game to Jinro on purpose!

He probably did throw it after he fucked up the first attack, there was no coming back from that really.

[Thunder]

Meh, TvT is the craziest match-up imo. Positional blunders against sieged tanks could screw anyone's lead over(ala makaprime!).

But man, choya beating MVP... I was facepalming when he was just adding on gateways/units when he was in the lead instead of teching/expanding. I was seriously hoping MVP won after choya threw his lead away just so the guy could be laughed at.

But hey, I'm pretty sure Jinro's chances are better against choya instead of MVP.

[Falaras]

Meh, TvT is the craziest match-up imo. Positional blunders against sieged tanks could screw anyone's lead over(ala makaprime!).

But man, choya beating MVP... I was facepalming when he was just adding on gateways/units when he was in the lead instead of teching/expanding. I was seriously hoping MVP won after choya threw his lead away just so the guy could be laughed at.

But hey, I'm pretty sure Jinro's chances are better against choya instead of MVP.

Yeah that's why I love Jinro's play so much, Koreans seem to be unable to build more than 1 additional command center/nexus in the GSL. Choya took it to the extreme though, I mean he could have at least got Legs or even a damn +1 to weapons and I would have been happier but he just kept adding on gateways, although he did eventually get a colossus...non upgraded. I wasn't impressed by Choya at all though, the whole game he had 1 pylon powering like 5 of his 6 gateways AND it was the closest set of buildings to his backdoor, he just seemed to be one of those all in koreans that either wins or gets knocked out and no one cares.