Point Allotment, Good idea? Horrible idea? In final version?

[KarlHungus]

I don't understand the level of tears over this system. In FFXI you couldn't swap from being a Taru to being a Galka, so no matter what you did there was always going to be some one who was more perfect at some jobs than you could ever be, simply because of racial stat distribution. FFXIV gives you the ability to essentially change your race, but just not instantly. If you want to be a guy who is ultra specialized, you can in fact do that, but you simply can't choose to turn around and instantly be ultra specialized in another direction.

If you want to be able to swap classes fluidly, then don't hyper specialize your stats. Give slight weight to your current class, so that if you need to change, you can give slight weight to your new class. I played a hume in FFXI so that I could make fluid changes from job to job. Sure I never hit as hard as an Elvaan or a Galka, and sure I could never quite nuke like a Taru nor have the accuracy of a Mithra, but you know what? I was never gimped. You KNOW that you spent time in groups with humes and they weren't gimp. You can choose in FFXIV to distribute your stats like a hume, and not be gimp, or you can choose to distribute them like one of those other races and be stronger in one area and "gimp" in another (think Galka RDM, etc).

It's amazing that people who could accept being locked into a certain stat distribution from day one until eternity in FFXI can complain about the fact that they can't swap from one extreme end of the spectrum to the other in a few minutes. Hey, guess what. Neither can any one else. The only way you're going to be GIMP is if you choose to be gimp, by not planning ahead. Don't be a gimp if you don't want to.

[miokomioko]

That's why it's not a system focused on hybridism, it's simply a resistor against people switching from one max'd class to another max'd class in a very short amount of time.

Why are people flipping out again?

[Hyan]

Why are people flipping out again?

Because they played FFXI and WoW and it wouldn't have worked there, and this game is just FFXI with higher minimum requirements, amirite?

[omegaB]

only problem is they kind of nerfed the focus on one class option they spoke of before, so the stat allocation gains more weight, since changing jobs is kind of suggested to be a daily thing.

[Hyan]

only problem is they kind of nerfed the focus on one class option they spoke of before

Reminds me of the year when WoTG came out in November..

"Didn't SE promise us there would be another update in December?"

[miokomioko]

They support class-maxing by allowing custom attribute distribution. They support overall class-changing by allowing attribute resets... However, since you can literally switch classes with a single macro in the middle of a fight, they had to restrict that to a degree by making the attribute-resets as slow as they are. They only hybridism that is supported here is entirely round-ing out your attributes to not just really suck at Mage or Melee individually, but to kinda' suck at any class you might macro-switch to in the middle of an event.

[Draylo]

In other words, it needs to get scrapped ASAP

[miokomioko]

In other words, it needs to get scrapped ASAP

In other words it's a system that works just fine and those who have been playing a different game for 7+ years are too frightened of change to adapt.

[Elrina]

Sounds kind of ridiculous. I've sat and considered, and reconsidered, and then again, this whole idea, after reading the arguments posted and reposted for and against this.

I'm very from against new things. I love new ideas. I'm one of the people that liked FFXIII and saw the merits in what they did in it that a lot of people despised. I've always been interested in seeing how new things work.

But this, FFXIV, an MMO made by SE who has a long track record of not fixing things inside an even remotely reasonable period of time in XI. Adapt? Change? I don't mind trying. But, at least on paper, no matter what the reasons for this, it's just going to be too restricting. I just can not see it going any other way.

I'm not whining about not being able to change from being the best at one thing to the best in another at the drop of a dime. I was never the "very best", I was just as good as I could be. In XI, you were able to change jobs in town and go from one to the other instantly (bar the time required to change out all your gear). This was promoted specifically for the ability to change classes at any time, and yet ~ Changing requires sacrifice. In theory, that's fine, but in a game we pay to play each month, why should we need to sacrifice if we had to earn the ability we have in each class? I have to sacrifice enough in my real life, every day, why are we being told that we can play a game that promotes multiple classes, but then are told that we must change classes regularly to play, and that we may not change our stats to reflect the playstyles we enjoy for those different classes? Why is this sacrifice required?

And the whole surplus system just exaggerates this even more, in my opinion, and it's really the combination of both of them that kills it. After a fair amount of reflection, the way the point allocation system is at present might be inside the realms of an adequate gameplay restriction without surplus. I still believe that there should be some way of "saving up" reallocations so that when you finally decide to switch you don't have to go through an agonizing changeover process, even if it's got a once a day limit in town (although even that would feel restrictive, it would suffice). But as long as there is some method of changing disciplines completely, even if it's a cooldown measured in days rather than minutes or hours, it saves from never escaping the agonizingly slow changeover that would take hours (and take gradually longer the closer you got to finishing the change).

But now, with surplus, you're dealing with a restriction not only in changing stats, but in playing classes period. You gain all the exp you can on one class, switch to another, and another, and another. Yet, while changing over with just this allocation issue in place, you would at least be able to just focus on one class, or a couple in one discipline, you're practically being forced into multiple disciplines simply to not be wasting your time. When you're being forced to play multiple disciplines, and if there is an "estimated 8 hour window" that you gain full experience, then there should be, at the most, an 8 hour window to do a full stat reallocation. At least that way when you're forced to change to another discipline that uses a different primary set of base stats you can adjust, in town, to reflect that.

This is a damn game. Good for SE that they aren't trying to make another clone, that they're sticking to their guns, blah blah blah. Bring on new systems and forms of gameplay, lets see how well they work and lets have fun with them. But for the love of everything good and holy, we're playing a game here. It is beyond frustrating to consider that not only will we not be able to change stats to reflect our current class, but that we're going to be forced to change classes anyway, whether we like it or not, and don't even have the reasonable option of playing only one or two classes in a discipline we favor that use similar stats.

[Hyan]

I'm not whining about not being able to change from being the best at one thing to the best in another at the drop of a dime.

Yes, you are.

It may be too hard for some people to adapt to the way min/maxing will work in this game. I wish they'd just play some other game instead of coming here with their sandy vags though.

Maybe someday..

[Metafox]

I kind of agree with Elrina. I'm not too concerned about specialization vs. hybridization or anything, I'm concerned about the ability to switch between very different roles, i.e. magic-based vs. physical-based. It's not as simple as choosing a balanced stat build over a specialized stat build.

While a previous post used race as an example of how a balanced stat build can work in any situation, ffxi's preset stat builds were actually very unbalanced if you look at each individual job. A hume may have balanced stats overall, but a hume blm does not have the same int as a hume war. However, in ffxiv, a conjurer has the exact same base int as a gladiator.

So far, ffxiv's stat respec system only allows for minor changes in stat distribution, so switching from a reasonable DoW spec to a DoM spec would likely take multiple respec sessions, rendering the practice impractical. In a normal MMORPG, the solution would be to create a second character in order to try out the content that you're missing on your main character. Unfortunately, they'll be charging for extra characters and I have no intention of giving them a monetary reward for making the poorly designed respec system. I understand that some people like the idea of setting your own stats, but why do some of you guys like the idea of not being able to switch between DoW and DoM classes?

[Hyan]

So far, ffxiv's stat respec system only allows for minor changes in stat distribution, so switching from a reasonable DoW spec to a DoM spec would likely take multiple respec sessions, rendering the practice impractical. In a normal MMORPG, the solution would be to create a second character in order to try out the content that you're missing on your main character. Unfortunately, they'll be charging for extra characters and I have no intention of giving them a monetary reward for making the poorly designed respec system. I understand that some people like the idea of setting your own stats, but why do some of you guys like the idea of not being able to switch between DoW and DoM classes?

When in the end it'll be more like "OH GOD, I MERITED STR AND AM NOT TARUTARU, I CAN'T BE A BLM NOW" I don't think it'll make a jack shit of a difference.

Also, charging for extra characters or not, makes no difference. You're always better off playing single character with many classes instead of 5 characters with one class each.

[Baffle]

It's not really about "being the best", its about being useful vs being absolutely ineffective.

For example, if I've been leveling mainly DoW jobs, why would I ever put a single point into INT or PIE? It won't benefit me in any way. So if I end up deciding to try a DoM job, do you think I'll be able to "get by" with only 15 in those stats? See, this is why you can't compare it to merits or races in XI, because those only make a small difference in the end. Here in XIV, it's all or nothing.

You're always better off playing single character with many classes instead of 5 characters with one class each.

Speak for yourself. I think I'd rather have the "typical" MMO scheme here instead of XIV's clunky system. Or we could've had XI's, which was better than both. Oh well.

This game could've been so much better.

Edit: "Different" doesn't always mean "good".

[Hyan]

For example, if I've been leveling mainly DoW jobs, why would I ever put a single point into INT or PIE? It won't benefit me in any way. So if I end up deciding to try a DoM job, do you think I'll be able to "get by" with only 15 in those stats? See, this is why you can't compare it to merits or races in XI, because those only make a small difference in the end. Here in XIV, it's all or nothing.

Because you would perform much better as a "useful" mage than "best" Gladiator against a physically resistant mob.

See, this is why you can't compare it to merits or races in XI

Yes, I can. You won't realistically have only 15 in mage stats, because you would gimp yourself by only putting your points on melee stats.

Now, if you want to be gimp, sure, you'll be fucked. In that case you deserve it.

[Baffle]

So you expect me to put a bunch of points into useless stats "just in case" I decide to switch jobs later? That sounds pretty dumb and not fun. But hey at least its different right?

You won't realistically have only 15 in mage stats

Any why not? What's the point in putting points into those stats when I might never intend to play those classes?

[Elrina]

Yes, you are.

It may be too hard for some people to adapt to the way min/maxing will work in this game. I wish they'd just play some other game instead of coming here with their sandy vags though.

Maybe someday..

When in the end it'll be more like "OH GOD, I MERITED STR AND AM NOT TARUTARU, I CAN'T BE A BLM NOW" I don't think it'll make a jack shit of a difference.

Also, charging for extra characters or not, makes no difference. You're always better off playing single character with many classes instead of 5 characters with one class each.

Look, I don't have any personal problems with you, but you really seem to like insulting people, or trying to make them look or feel like fools. You may not have a problem with unreasonable restrictions compounded together, that might be more reasonable separately, and that's fine. But constructive criticism (which I believe is what that was), by me and by others, does not equate to a "sandy vag", sir. It is our responsibility and our right, as the fans and players, to express how we feel about the game's design and systems in a constructive manner.

Yes, eventually it may result in playing a different game. But this is the new Final Fantasy, and I've been a fan of them since 1993 when I first played VI, have enjoyed every one since then, and would rather play and enjoy it.

And yes, one character with multiple jobs/classes should always be better. It really should. As it stands right now, it is not.

And it's like Baffle said before me, it's all or nothing in min/maxing. There is no "the way min/maxing will work in this game", the term is coined for minimizing stuff that does not improve your characters current ability and maximizing what does improve it. Even when you count in the traits that are able to be used, you are still sacrificing ability for your class no matter what you do.

Combined with surplus and the required changing of classes on a regular basis, not being able to adjust stats fully to reflect whether you're on a Disciple of War class or a Disciple of Magic class, even if you can only make that change once a day, or even once every 48 hours, something, is flat out unreasonable.

[Hyan]

Any why not? What's the point in putting points into those stats when I might never intend to play those classes?

You would gimp yourself for not doing so.

You can, of course, initially focus more on the melee stats but completely neglecting mage stats especially when diminishing returns come into play would be incredibly dumb. 1 STR for 20 INT go!

And yes, one character with multiple jobs/classes should always be better. It really should. As it stands right now, it is not.

It is. You min/max your character by evenly distributing your stats and playing a variety of roles, so you are equipped for every occasion.

[Baffle]

I might never intend to play those classes

You seem to have missed this part. Also 1 helpful stat vs 20 not-helpful stats sounds pretty good to me.

You min/max your character by evenly distributing your stats and playing a variety of roles, so you are equipped for every occasion.

This is unnecessary because we can always find someone else who can do the things I can't do, and do them really well, making the whole group stronger for it.


You know I could go back and forth like this all day but that'd make the topic even worse than it already is. So I'll just say that I disagree with many of this game's decisions and bow out while I can.

Topic's yours, Hyan.

[Hyan]

You seem to have missed this part. Also 1 helpful stat vs 20 not-helpful stats sounds pretty good to me.

If you want to be gimp then there is no argument. Be gimp, and be punished for it.

This is unnecessary because we can always find someone else who can do the things I can't do, and do them really well, making the whole group stronger for it.

Can you do that mid-event? Impressive.

[lurtsman]

You would gimp yourself for not doing so.

You can, of course, initially focus more on the melee stats but completely neglecting mage stats especially when diminishing returns come into play would be incredibly dumb. 1 STR for 20 INT go!



It is. You min/max your character by evenly distributing your stats and playing a variety of roles, so you are equipped for every occasion.

I'll be shocked if it ever gets to 1 STR = 20 int. For high end content, top groups will have more people than are required so they can customize to the encounter. We would run less people if the job change was more fluid. You can go ahead and have INT on your gladiator, but no one in most top end guilds will be invited to a raid while they actively weaken the role they are assigned to do.

I don't entirely dislike this system, I'll be tanking primarily, and when I switch to other dps classes I'll be heavier on vitality and I understand that. It makes it feel like my primary role is tanking. I believe they will compensate for forcing players to use sub-optimal stat allocations by decreasing mob difficulty. As a result most leveling content will be a complete joke on your main, and group content will be a joke with one or two other players who are excellent at the game and performing their chosen role.

The case is "how much" should players be locked in. In ffxi I would focus on jobs that matched my race--because I went as a taru to mage it up. However, stat points were still correlated to job IIRC. When you changed sam to BLM, you didn't retain the same stats. You knew that taru would be gimp as melee and great as mage, but the amount of the gimping was comparably small. Now going from "taru blm to pld" you may have had lower life, but the difference between a taru pld vs any other pld is tiny compared to the difference between a [race] gladiator and his [race] conjurer. Here the race issue is largely irrelevant. The amount of stats you would be missing is huge compared to the racial disadvantages in ffxi. In wow the difference was even smaller. Having the right race frequently would result in far less than a 1% increase in damage. Frequently the increase was less than 0.2%. When the difference is that small, raid leaders skip the character race all together and look for other things. In ffxi they looked at merits. In wow they check gem sockets. 80-90% of max level players looking for high end raids do not gem their gear correctly. Of those players, 5-10% can function satisfactorily in a raid with other skilled players. Of the 10% that gemmed right, about half can function well enough for a strong pug (pick up group). Who wants to take a risk on a 5-10% chance for good when they can wait for a 50%, given the usual drama that results from removing a player who is completely ineffective and hampering everyone else?

In short, if tanking is designed well enough in this game, it will encourage glads to get some str/dex, so they can change to other melee with a very small reduction in effectiveness--small enough that raid leaders would prefer them as a person who knew the encounter and the guild's (LS/co) rules. However gladiator, or lancer, or anything else like it will not be putting points in INT if they want an invite to high end large group content. It would be nice of a full stat point reset was available upon switching from DoW to DoM. Though this would effect crafting based on stats, but that's a talk for another day.

If a mob is "physical resistant" such that it is better to encounter it with a mage that has 15, or 20, or 25 int at level 30, rather than as a perfectly geared gladiator or lancer, than the game developers have failed horribly at balancing fights. There should be importance to having some classes present, but either the mage is taking advantage of a gimmick mechanic, or the punishment on melee is WAY too strong.

/imagines "Hey guild, we're going to fight physical resistant mob, if you only have physical classes leveled because that's what we want you to play for every other fight in the game, you can take the night off."

I get that some people want hybrids, and they work in tiny groups. They rarely work in large groups, and even then preventing stat point changes on a discipline change is an irresponsible way to advocate hybrids. Look at the shaman from wow. It has hybrid down to a science. It can become largely specialized in doing what it does, but retains a small fraction of it's other abilities. The entire stat reset doesn't hurt it because it can swap to a different tree and fill a different role.

As for changing classes mid fight and preventing instant-stat change. Just make full stat change to other discipline require out of combat and 30 seconds. Then it can still be used to change on the fly to deal with having different members present for a run, or swapping classes within an exp group as people hit the surplus. For bad groups that may be a problem, but good groups will be doing it routinely. Those good groups though will adjust in a different way. Physical stays physical, and caster stays caster.

Edit. PS. If a mage with very low int is still better than taking a gladiator and the number of people is not limited--it won't matter. Assuming the number is limited (for balance sake), than how much better is a mage that is geared w/ the right stats? A few of them will dominate the encounter. It will either be a complete joke for them, or the low int mages will have zero chance.

Also this "if you want to be gimp by not stacking up on int so you can change classes on the fly" shit needs to stop. When the game hits the players who are gimped and not invited to groups are the ones with "oh hey guys I'm a hybrid lol play the game my way even though it doesn't work for high end content". Being a shitty gladiator and a shitty mage (having half of the correct stats doesn't make you a "good, pretty good, or acceptable alternative" to someone who has the right stats when I can just bring a great gladiator and a great mage played by two different people into the guild. There will be enough players to choose from. The only way high end guilds use hybrids is if ffxiv focuses on small team combat instead of large. If that is the case, there will still be expected builds for each encounter. I'd prefer it not be that way, because it forces building specific hybrids.