Point Allotment, Good idea? Horrible idea? In final version?

[lurtsman]

If you want to be gimp then there is no argument. Be gimp, and be punished for it.



Can you do that mid-event? Impressive.

I can do it mid event.

I tell someone who was sitting out that they are swapping into the raid. Not hard. Raid leaders have been doing this for years. A system that prevents changing to at least a reasonable semblance of an optimal build simply requires having more players on stand by.

[BlackheartX]

I don't understand the level of tears over this system. In FFXI you couldn't swap from being a Taru to being a Galka, so no matter what you did there was always going to be some one who was more perfect at some jobs than you could ever be, simply because of racial stat distribution. FFXIV gives you the ability to essentially change your race, but just not instantly. If you want to be a guy who is ultra specialized, you can in fact do that, but you simply can't choose to turn around and instantly be ultra specialized in another direction.

If you want to be able to swap classes fluidly, then don't hyper specialize your stats. Give slight weight to your current class, so that if you need to change, you can give slight weight to your new class. I played a hume in FFXI so that I could make fluid changes from job to job. Sure I never hit as hard as an Elvaan or a Galka, and sure I could never quite nuke like a Taru nor have the accuracy of a Mithra, but you know what? I was never gimped. You KNOW that you spent time in groups with humes and they weren't gimp. You can choose in FFXIV to distribute your stats like a hume, and not be gimp, or you can choose to distribute them like one of those other races and be stronger in one area and "gimp" in another (think Galka RDM, etc).

It's amazing that people who could accept being locked into a certain stat distribution from day one until eternity in FFXI can complain about the fact that they can't swap from one extreme end of the spectrum to the other in a few minutes. Hey, guess what. Neither can any one else. The only way you're going to be GIMP is if you choose to be gimp, by not planning ahead. Don't be a gimp if you don't want to.

Not many people use a 10 year-old game as their reference point in this day and age. just saying...

[Hyan]

I'll be shocked if it ever gets to 1 STR = 20 int. For high end content, top groups will have more people than are required so they can customize to the encounter. We would run less people if the job change was more fluid. You can go ahead and have INT on your gladiator, but no one in most top end guilds will be invited to a raid while they actively weaken the role they are assigned to do.

And I'll be shocked if it doesn't. Maybe 10 sounds more realistic though.

Sure, you can customize the group if we're talking about a single encounter, but when we're talking about any longer stuff especially events where you can't just log in to a different character in the middle of it, having more balanced characters is going to be important.

Instead of taking a balanced set-up of specialized people you can have a near-perfect set-up for every encounter in said event.

However gladiator, or lancer, or anything else like it will not be putting points in INT if they want an invite to high end large group content.

Yes, they would, because having an access to a CON at a press of a macro would be more beneficial than having 10 more STR on your LNC.

If a mob is "physical resistant" such that it is better to encounter it with a mage that has 15, or 20, or 25 int at level 30, rather than as a perfectly geared gladiator or lancer, than the game developers have failed horribly at balancing fights.

I don't see why. Some classes are better than others at some fights.

/imagines "Hey guild, we're going to fight physical resistant mob, if you only have physical classes leveled because that's what we want you to play for every other fight in the game, you can take the night off."

If he only has physical classes leveled, then he'll obviously come as a physical class and perform subpar. He would be better off coming as a mage though, obviously.

I get that some people want hybrids, and they work in tiny groups. They rarely work in large groups, and even then preventing stat point changes on a discipline change is an irresponsible way to advocate hybrids.

We're not talking about a RDM melee vs. relic SAM differences here.

I can do it mid event.

I tell someone who was sitting out that they are swapping into the raid. Not hard. Raid leaders have been doing this for years. A system that prevents changing to at least a reasonable semblance of an optimal build simply requires having more players on stand by.

Sounds like an awesome mechanic that should be encouraged.

I absolutely hated not having to stand-by in XI...

[KarlHungus]

Any why not? What's the point in putting points into those stats when I might never intend to play those classes?

What are you crying for if you never intend to play those classes?

[KarlHungus]

Not many people use a 10 year-old game as their reference point in this day and age. just saying...

Yea, why would some one reference the game to which this site is dedicated, and which also happens to be the direct precursor to FFXIV from the exact same company? What an obscure comparison to make, amirite?

If you're on this site and have never played FFXI before, then you're probably retarded. I think it's pretty safe to make references to FFXI and expect most people here to have a sense of what I'm talking about.

[Aodh]

Umm... If you play melee characters and earn guildmarks, you can get traits that you equip to change physical stats to magical stats. IIRC the swing per job is about 18 points (8 and 10 for base trait and second version). So 4 melee job marks could get you a 64point swing in one stat theoretically. The trait had a lower cap, but in the beta everything had the same cost, we'll see how they appear in open-beta. Generally it means that you could assign points to one class and use the mark credits to benefit other classes.

[Battlecat]

wtf is with this thread and walls of text... seriously, if you don't get it by now, either stfu and gowai, or play the game, get to the point where you can actually experience the issue, and figure it out for yourself/wait for the smart people to figure out the system and parrot them.

[Draylo]

wtf is with this thread and walls of text... seriously, if you don't get it by now, either stfu and gowai, or play the game, get to the point where you can actually experience the issue, and figure it out for yourself/wait for the smart people to figure out the system and parrot them.

They are discussing what the thread is about... if you can't be bothered to read then get off forums.

[BlackheartX]

Yea, why would some one reference the game to which this site is dedicated, and which also happens to be the direct precursor to FFXIV from the exact same company? What an obscure comparison to make, amirite?

If you're on this site and have never played FFXI before, then you're probably retarded. I think it's pretty safe to make references to FFXI and expect most people here to have a sense of what I'm talking about.

While it's true that most people have played XI on this forum, other games exist and I didn't say there was anything wrong with your reference, besides it's 10 years old and other games have been released since that time. So the tears will probably come from people who aren't use to FFXI's gimpness in relation to their recent history with other games. Lastly with the bolded bit can you confirm or deny this is FFXI2 for my records?

[KarlHungus]

While it's true that most people have played XI on this forum, other games exist and I didn't say there was anything wrong with your reference, besides it's 10 years old and other games have been released since that time. So the tears will probably come from people who aren't use to FFXI's gimpness in relation to their recent history with other games. Lastly with the bolded bit can you confirm or deny this is FFXI2 for my records?

Can you confirm for my records whether S-E has made other MMOs since FFXI? The races of FFXIV are deliberately very similar or identical to the races from FFXI, because they want the game to be a natural fit for FFXI players. Confirm/Deny? Do you really want to keep arguing such a meaningless and clearly evident point?

[BlackheartX]

So yes?... my answer is no and yes

[miokomioko]

They made obvious similarities to help ease any transitions from XI to XIV and spoke on this fact. That is all.

[Battlecat]

They are discussing what the thread is about... if you can't be bothered to read then get off forums.

My point, is not that the thread is retarded because of walls of text, I was just pointing out that this thread seems to have an abnormally large walls of text to normal sized posts ratio. The actual content is what is ridiculous.

[lurtsman]

The "stand by" mechanic sucks. I don't appreciate having to use it. It appears we disagree about the cost to swapping classes. You seem to feel for 10 strength the lancer can push his other stats high enough to have a passable conjurer. I don't expect that to be true. You suggested 10 to 1 might be a more reasonable ratio, I agree with you there. In such a case, 10 strength missing could lead to 100 int or pie. Or 50 of each. I do not believe that raising 15int/15pie to 65/65 is enough to make them passable as a caster.

One of the crucial events controlling the hybrid vs focused debate will be the ability to replace people mid group. If we are able to replace them, it will mean more people on standby. If we are not, it will suck when someone has an IRL emergency. Neither option sounds appealing.

If we can not replace them, it becomes theoretically possible to encourage one player in such a group to use a hybrid build. Assuming a group size of 10 players, 1 hybrid could swap your line up from 2 healers to 3. (Assuming standards of 1MT, 1OT, 1MH,1RH, 6 dps, where 1 dps is offspecced in wow--or flat out replaced in ffxiv due to stat locking, for an additional healer.) MT-main tank, OT-offtank, MH-Main healer for tank, RH-Raid healer

On a previous note. If a mob is massively resistant to physical (say 80% reduction) the player with only physical classes won't come on his best geared class, he won't come at all. He'll be told to sit on the side lines, or to go gather materials. The only way he would be brought in spite of this if the best in slot equipment for his class dropped there and the other players for whom it was also BiS already had it--this also assumes the loot can be exchanged between players. If that were the case, he would be told to go level a gimp conjurer or thaum, respec physically to do it, and then come to the raid, get the piece, and start respeccing back to his regular class.

To me, all that respeccing does not sound like fun. It sounds like suck. In a couple months we will know for sure which way the game has gone. Since this is a game that people pay to play, "Lol lancers suck on fight 12a" sounds like a retarded system of "balance". I don't want any of the classes to be trash, at any point. There should be things they don't do well, but not fights in which they are awful.

[lurtsman]

My point, is not that the thread is retarded because of walls of text, I was just pointing out that this thread seems to have an abnormally large walls of text to normal sized posts ratio. The actual content is what is ridiculous.

The walls of text, statistically speaking, correlate with the amount of me bashing the keyboard in an insane attempt to explain high level raid strategy.

[Hyan]

The "stand by" mechanic sucks. I don't appreciate having to use it. It appears we disagree about the cost to swapping classes. You seem to feel for 10 strength the lancer can push his other stats high enough to have a passable conjurer. I don't expect that to be true. You suggested 10 to 1 might be a more reasonable ratio, I agree with you there. In such a case, 10 strength missing could lead to 100 int or pie. Or 50 of each. I do not believe that raising 15int/15pie to 65/65 is enough to make them passable as a caster.

Of course that depends on where SE decides to put the point of diminishing returns. If it's 90 STR and 15 INT and PIE versus 80 STR 75 INT and PIE, we are not talking about massive differences here. All depends on the implementation, just like with every new system known to man. Should SE not do it because there's a chance of failure?

One of the crucial events controlling the hybrid vs focused debate will be the ability to replace people mid group. If we are able to replace them, it will mean more people on standby. If we are not, it will suck when someone has an IRL emergency. Neither option sounds appealing.

This was not, at least for me, a likely occurrence in XI. Of course that depends on the number of people needed and how long it takes to finish the event. Anything shorter than Salvage, and my experience was that very rarely did people have to leave midrun, and 80% of the time it was not a make or break deal.

I will assume that it would be the same case in XIV, but obviously it is speculation.

On a previous note. If a mob is massively resistant to physical (say 80% reduction) the player with only physical classes won't come on his best geared class, he won't come at all. He'll be told to sit on the side lines, or to go gather materials. The only way he would be brought in spite of this if the best in slot equipment for his class dropped there and the other players for whom it was also BiS already had it--this also assumes the loot can be exchanged between players. If that were the case, he would be told to go level a gimp conjurer or thaum, respec physically to do it, and then come to the raid, get the piece, and start respeccing back to his regular class.

That, also, depends on what plans SE has for endgame. If there's a lot of fights against just one monster, and those fights have a maximum player limit, what you say might be true.

It does seem, though, that in the later years SE has been more of a fan of instanced events rather than open world encounters. (Sometimes) randomized events with various type of fights, actually. Continuing this trend would definitely work in favor of the current system, and even if there are some type of encounters that would theoretically work better with a specialized build, if for the majority of endgame it would be better to be a hybrid, I don't see that as an issue.

[Battlecat]

The walls of text, statistically speaking, correlate with the amount of me bashing the keyboard in an insane attempt to explain high level raid strategy.

So you're trying to explain the high level raid strategy for a game with no high level raids, or even high levels yet. SE has tried (annoyingly so in several instances) to shrug off the usual mechanics of other MMOs. So how can you presume to explain XIV's endgame raids (which again, don't exist) in relation to your experiences in another MMO? It just doesn't even begin to make sense. And before you say "but it's incredibly likely to follow model X" the only thing I have to say to you, is "Surplus." SE has proven more than once they don't have to make sense

[miokomioko]

More like~ SE has proven time and time again they will try their hardest to reinvent the wheel with every fucking release.

[Battlecat]

More like~ SE has proven time and time again they will try their hardest to reinvent the wheel with every fucking release.

lol that too

[lurtsman]

"Surplus." SE has proven more than once they don't have to make sense

Good point