Zerg Discussion and Strategy

[Indalecia]

Zerg player forever, here

I usually play long games with my two roomies. Is anyone else finding that protoss carriers are kinda fucking pushovers to take down now? Used to be kinda hard to take out 10-12 carriers, now I faceraperolleva them.

[Kaylia]

If you're outnumbering them in an open field..yeah, but if he micro his carrier properly, they can be brutal

[Maguspk]

I am laughing so hard at you guys trying to decide how to counter terran as zerg. Basically Terran is one of, if not the, strongest race at the moment, they are afforded such a versatile build path and their compisition, even on one base is hard to deal with safely as a zerg, even with two bases. Even if you like get the perfect units it's still a toss up whether you'll win or not due to terran having like amazing units.

[Syntex]

I am laughing so hard at you guys trying to decide how to counter terran as zerg. Basically Terran is one of, if not the, strongest race at the moment, they are afforded such a versatile build path and their compisition, even on one base is hard to deal with safely as a zerg, even with two bases. Even if you like get the perfect units it's still a toss up whether you'll win or not due to terran having like amazing units.

I'll agree with you but the game is balanced enough that unless your seeing diamond league play there is still a lot more on your part your not doing that is costing you the game.

When you are scouting every opportunity and applying the correct strats to counter him and microing the best possible, that is when the race imbalance rears its head.

By no means does what I'm saying mean that it doesn't exist anywhere but diamond because it does but 99% of the time its that combined with something bigger that got you killed.

[Maguspk]

I'll agree with you but the game is balanced enough that unless your seeing diamond league play there is still a lot more on your part your not doing that is costing you the game.

When you are scouting every opportunity and applying the correct strats to counter him and microing the best possible, that is when the race imbalance rears its head.

By no means does what I'm saying mean that it doesn't exist anywhere but diamond because it does but 99% of the time its that combined with something bigger that got you killed.

gg assuming I was talking about myself. Of fucking course it's not just the race that decides a game, did you have to read a TL thread to decide that? lmao What I'm talking about is the theoretical difference in the way a Zerg can play and the way a Terran can play. Of course you can always say someone got 'outskilled' or whatever the fuck, but that's a dumb argument because there is no definitive way to decide that, instead you need to look at the meta game and scenarios in which the players do no matter, and instead you look at what X race can do against X race at X minutes into the game with X base.

It doesn't matter what level of play you're at, given equal skill sets the only deciding factors are the races themselves and the small amount of mind games and what have you. The race is the biggest factor and Terran has much more leeway, it doesn't matter if you're a noob or a pro, Terran is just simply stronger in most areas. They just have so many options and no other race can really compete with their versatility. Their early game, especially against Zerg is like rock solid too, a zerg cannot 'counter' a Terran player strictly speaking they can only exploit a gap in skill or fluke. The fact that Terrans can live on one base is also a pretty big bonus, where Zerg fails on one base, Terran shines.

[Syntex]

gg assuming I was talking about myself. Of fucking course it's not just the race that decides a game, did you have to read a TL thread to decide that? lmao What I'm talking about is the theoretical difference in the way a Zerg can play and the way a Terran can play. Of course you can always say someone got 'outskilled' or whatever the fuck, but that's a dumb argument because there is no definitive way to decide that, instead you need to look at the meta game and scenarios in which the players do no matter, and instead you look at what X race can do against X race at X minutes into the game with X base.

It doesn't matter what level of play you're at, given equal skill sets the only deciding factors are the races themselves and the small amount of mind games and what have you. The race is the biggest factor and Terran has much more leeway, it doesn't matter if you're a noob or a pro, Terran is just simply stronger in most areas. They just have so many options and no other race can really compete with their versatility. Their early game, especially against Zerg is like rock solid too, a zerg cannot 'counter' a Terran player strictly speaking they can only exploit a gap in skill or fluke. The fact that Terrans can live on one base is also a pretty big bonus, where Zerg fails on one base, Terran shines.

It seems this time around zerg has to have 2 bases to even combat any other race other then a 1 base zerg because 1 base zerg will lost to protoss too.

I see what your getting at and yes zerg does need some more answers but whats the best way to go about it without upsetting balance somewhere else?

[geno]

Even if assuming equal skill level Terran beat zerg the majority of the time, it still won't have an effect on the ladder short of the top levels. There's a pretty simple reason for this. If there are two people of equal skill that play Terran and Zerg, if there is a significant racial advantage, the Terran player will end up ranked higher than the Zerg counterpart. So in actual ladder games, the Zerg will end up playing people below his skill level and winning about 50% while the Terran will play people above his level and also win about 50%.

Anyways, I'd still agree that Terran is pretty imba right now, at least against Zerg. There are some notable Zerg strategies that do very well, but it still seems to be the Terran's games to lose in the majority of situations.

That makes the really high end zerg players all the more impressive though when they pull out some amazing plays. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEcfhkyrgCk

The Idra vs drewbie game on Kulas in particular is pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing how much work Idra had to do to win that game despite playing with what should be significant advantages throughout the majority of the game.

edit: rephrased first paragraph

[Kurp]

What is the best way to use the queen's Spawn Larvae? Any tricks or easy ways to group them?

[geno]

Nothing as easy as the wireframe casting was in beta, but there are some pretty nifty tricks you can use.

Couple things to take into account. If you have multiple queens selected and cast spawn larvae on a hatchery, the closest one will do it (while the others will stand still). This becomes more useful when used in conjunction with minimap casting. If you select a queen and cast spawn larvae and click the minimap where the hatchery you want to cast it on is, it will work. You don't have to be TOO precise with your minimap click, but you do need to be pretty close.

So, say you have 4 bases in lategame, each with a queen at it. Make a hotkey with all 4 hatcheries and all 4 queens in it, using it as your production hotkey. Then, when you need to spawn larvae, hit tab to cycle to the queens, then hit v (for spawn larvae) and click the minimap where you have a hatchery and repeat for all four hatches. This requires minimal work, lets you do it without looking back at your base, and even only takes up one hotkey.

Alternatively, many prefer to have two separate hotkeys (for hatcheries and for queens) so they don't accidentally move their queens when setting rally points.

[Maguspk]

You can also hotkey each queen and group all your hatches on a different key, this lets you double tap a queen hotkey and then v-click your hatch. It's a personal preference really because either this way or geno's way will result in fairly fast spawn larvae cycles.

[Kurp]

Thanks for the tips. I'll try all of those methods out to see what works best for me. I think the queen and hatcheries on two different keys and using the mini-map might work the best.

I screw up my rally points at least once per game, even though I'm not hitting the rally hotkeys. I'm not sure which key combo does it yet.

[GRT]

you know, that was one Terran build i have trouble dealing with, but most of the time Terran is SOOOOOOOOOOOO much less a threat to me compared to Protoss, which most of the time I'm completely clueless as to what to do, 2 gate into 3 gate robo is just impossible to beat

[Syntex]

you know, that was one Terran build i have trouble dealing with, but most of the time Terran is SOOOOOOOOOOOO much less a threat to me compared to Protoss, which most of the time I'm completely clueless as to what to do, 2 gate into 3 gate robo is just impossible to beat

I have yet to run into a protoss that has done this(doesn't help I played like 3 games as zerg 1v1 though) since I been practicing against the computer mostly to improve my game before I head back to plat league.

The thing I am having issues with right now is my starting build order. I always do a 14 pool 14 hatch which is my standard but Idra does 14 pool 15 hatch so does that mean he makes a drone inbetween those? Seems like its not worth the delay of the hatch but thats just me.

Other then that I'm kinda lost when I play a map like Desert Oasis where a 2 gate push on my expo means a lost expo so when I have to stay 1base for a little or until I can expand safely I'm kinda just not focused I guess you could say.

That and because unlike Terran or Protoss where you can pump workers AND offensive units at the same time I am having a hard time balancing drones and army especially early game.

Any tips?

[GRT]

you shouldn't have it set in mind to early expand imo, simply because zerg can put on so much early pressure if done right

scout early and see what kind of defenses opponent has set up, and put on pressure to either win outright or enough so that they will be on the defensive and you can expand safely

but 2gate push is strong even against one base play, that's why i'm qq'ing, it basically forces me to pump out lings or tech to roaches, and then they can just switch into 3 base robo and counter either strat that they've forced me into

[GRT]

i think imma try just pump out banglings nonstop and blow up the gateways next time some toss try to 2gate me, fuck

[Sylvrdragon]

I wrote a guide to Zerg Micro. Here:

Spoiler: show

F10 > n (gg optional)

Spoiler: show

[Kaylia]

but 2gate push is strong even against one base play, that's why i'm qq'ing, it basically forces me to pump out lings or tech to roaches, and then they can just switch into 3 base robo and counter either strat that they've forced me into

When I play against protoss lately and see 2/3 gate, I pick a random expand out of the way and fill my main with 4 spine crawlers, followed by a muta tech (often hidden in my expand). If they keep the pressure on my main with zealot, they will rarely scout the rest of the map, and muta always come around the right time for harass. Even if they tech'd phoenix/stalker, you can usually inflict enough dmg to turn the game around.

If I see the opportunity, I will slip speedling in their mineral line from my expansion (if most of their army is near my main)

[GRT]

i'm not very comfortable with hidden expansion, not with the gamble, but yeah that's a good solution

lately i've been using 9pool on all the protoss matches to force them into pumping zealots and then spine crawler + tech to muta, been winning 50~60% of them with this strat, so maybe with some more refinement this can work pretty well

[Misuicide]

when i get zerg i've been playing 14 gas 14 pool strat, works great against other zerg and toss. terran i have to get lucky and get in with banes or keep them at a 1 base.

I've been getting zerg a lot lately, and i'm feeling very comfortable with them. My terran is slacking a lot, they used to be my best. I feel as though i play protoss and zerg the best now.

[Demetrius*]

as a Rank 1 diamond Zerg I haven't had trouble with a 2 gate in a long time. I actually prefer it because I know there's gonna be a slow tech from him after it and a delayed 4 gate at best.

I favor using Idra's build that he used vs Tester in the KOTB(and he fended off every 2 gate from one of the best toss on the planet quite easily). It's 15 gas 15 pool(or can go with 14 gas 14 pool for a safer build) into ling speed + queen when spawning pool finishes. Pull guys off of gas after you get the 100 gas for ling speed.

Make a few lings then expand around 20/21 supply. Use your queen's first 25 energy to inject larva, and the 2nd 25 energy for a creep tumor to link your main and nat. If you spot a 2 gate halt drone production and just pump out lings until you fend off his first push. A key time to attack is after the 4 sets of lings pop after your first larva inject. You should be able to overwhelm his zealots np. Go for a surround and avoid fighting his zealots if they're backed against a wall or structure. It also helps a lot if you send your queen in first to tank some hits from the zealots, just be sure you pull her back before she dies!

Normally you'd put guys back into gas when your expo is about halfway done and tech to lair/hydras from there, but against 2 gate he has a delayed gas so you don't have to worry about any stargate play for awhile.