What's Better?

[Malacite]

Also, looking to upgrade my DRG's lance (still using Thal X.x) but unsure if I should go with WS DMG +10% or STP +12. The 12 makes it way easier to maintain 6-hit, but with my current gear I can manage it fine with Rajas, Ecphoria, Chiv Chain, Brutal & Rose Strap. I'm leaning more towards the damage lance since giving up 2% DA (pole strap) is far more favorable than 10% WS DMG just for the sake of an easy 6-hit set up (I use Nocturnus Body btw, don't have Askar Korazin)

[Yugl]

Get the OAT or sTP+12 lance since you can FIVE hit with either of them.

[Raenil]

WSDMG+10% if you can't get a 5-hit while maintaining high haste with STP+12.

Ideally, you'll want to get OAT though. Even if couses are ugly as sin.

[Yugl]

Couses look boss. I think you're talking about Mezraq model. Get the sTP because even if you can't make 5-hit now, you will in future updates (Since it's expected that the sTP value will increase). Don't listen to the this Raenil guy.

[Raenil]

Ah, yeah. I always forget about the potential STP options next update. However, I remembered long enough to do STP myself.

Couses are still ugly though. As are Mezraqs. Now, Tomoe model on the other hand... Why couldn't they use that for Bradamante? :<

[lionsheart]

I am just wondering if there's still a need to aim for true 5-Hit in abyssea nowadays? Considering most of the time I am using VV + RR on War. And running from my super rough calculations I can get 6-10 tp free tp between WS with 1 march haste and 26% haste in gear and using OAT Gaxe.

My current setup:
Stun grip +1
Fire bomblet
Wala turban
Adaberk
pcc
Aeisr
Brutal
Cuchu
bullwhip
AF3+2
AF3+1
Sniper +1
Rajas

I do have goading and askar ready, but OAT and the regain effect always throw me off and I am not sure how much STP I should aim for. Would like to see you guys insight on this factoring the regain from VV.

Thanks

[Neoex]

Raging Rush

Hecatomb Feet +1 or Ravagers Calliage +2 for the set bonus currently using Ravagers Mask+2 on RR? Can set bonus activate on WS? Already have seen a 2100 critical with the "Augments Double Attack" set bonus during TP phase

[Yugl]

I am just wondering if there's still a need to aim for true 5-Hit in abyssea nowadays? Considering most of the time I am using VV + RR on War. And running from my super rough calculations I can get 6-10 tp free tp between WS with 1 march haste and 26% haste in gear and using OAT Gaxe.

My current setup:
Stun grip +1
Fire bomblet
Wala turban
Adaberk
pcc
Aeisr
Brutal
Cuchu
bullwhip
AF3+2
AF3+1
Sniper +1
Rajas

I do have goading and askar ready, but OAT and the regain effect always throw me off and I am not sure how much STP I should aim for. Would like to see you guys insight on this factoring the regain from VV.

Thanks

Why would you only have one march? Calculate it with 2 Marches + Haste Samba + Haste + 26% Haste gear + Hasso. Then calculate it again without the Hasso/Samba. Use these to determine how much sTP you'll need for a 5-hit build (Don't aim for a "true" 5-hit build since you do have regain).

[Bladefury]

For Mandau THF, when the opportunity is available to NOT be wearing the damned TK, I currently have the options of Rapidus Sax, and X's Knife as my offhand. I don't know the math portion, nor do I truly have the time to figure it all out, but 1) do I have a need to keep the X's Knife? (would be sad to have to toss that damn'd thing considering the time spent having my hopes crushed weekly) 2) From all I've been seeing, the Auric Dagger seems taht it would be my best option for offhand, is this true?

I'm open for any suggestions, and for reference, I'm wearing 26% Haste pre-Rapidus Sax, so the 1% Haste is wasted on it, and I have no options to reduce a single slot by 1% haste currently. Should I start working on a ToM dagger for offhand as an alternate option?

[Malacite]

Get the OAT or sTP+12 lance since you can FIVE hit with either of them.

Can you really 5-hit with the STP lance? Didn't think DRG could get enough STP for that.

Current set up on DRG is:


Weapon: Thal
Sub: Rose Strap
Ammo: Olib Sachet (elvaan RSE)
Head: W Turban
Neck: Chiv Chain
Ear 1: Brutal
Ear 2: Ethereal (been meaning to get an Aesir Earring off Odin)
Body: Nocturnus
Hands: Dusk
Ring 1: Rajas
Ring 2: Ecphoria
Back: Amemet +1
Waist : Headlong Belt (again, been meaning to whack SB NM since I got a Codex)
Legs: Perle
Feet: Homam

[Clash Perez]

Can you really 5-hit with the STP lance? Didn't think DRG could get enough STP for that.

/SAM, Rose, W.Tathlum, Brutal, Rajas, Aurum body, Goading Belt for true 5-hit, but you can shave some of that off due to WS TP return and/or atma selection.

[Eleven19]

/SAM, Rose, W.Tathlum, Brutal, Rajas, Aurum body, Goading Belt for true 5-hit, but you can shave some of that off due to WS TP return and/or atma selection.

Can also use ace's sabatons instead of goading, whichever is easier for your LS to get, though Goading would be the better upgrade on drg obviously. But yeah, definitely doable, and it'll only get easier as sTP weapons level up.

[Malacite]

But by that same token wouldn't the WS DMG level up too?

[Yugl]

But by that same token wouldn't the WS DMG level up too?

Depends on by how much. If I remember correctly, 6>5 hit is 20%. In other words, the lance needs to come with an additional 10% WS damage to *match* the sTP lance in WS DMG. At the same time, increases in sTP means you can drop sTP elsewhere. What does that ultimately mean? More haste.

[FailureMidgard]

Depends on by how much. If I remember correctly, 6>5 hit is 20%. In other words, the lance needs to come with an additional 10% WS damage to *match* the sTP lance in WS DMG. At the same time, increases in sTP means you can drop sTP elsewhere. What does that ultimately mean? More haste.

No, not at the same time. First off, in Abyssea you have Eve available. Even if you only want to rely on 1 tick of regain, Aurum/WhiteTath/Rose/Rajas/Hoard/Tac/Goading/Brutal on TP, and Aurum/Rose/Brutal/Rajas on WS will leave you at 98 with 1 extra hit on Drakesbane landing, and is actually a true 5-hit if you land all 3 additional hits (86% of the time). If you want to add more storeTP to either set, you can make it 5hittable with only 2/3 additional hits (99.275% of the time). Yes, this setup is only at 22.5% haste, so you're losing 2.5% haste (and some attack...str/dex don't matter at all in Abyssea as you're fstr and ddex capped likely), but it has -higher- WS dmg, not short 10% and short haste...and again, in abyssea, you really don't need as much storeTP as I listed, so you can easily drop some and rely on Eve (2 ticks is probably safe).

[Yugl]

I don't get what you're disagreeing with me on?

Edit: If you're suggesting that the WS DMG Lance can produce a 5-hit using all that, then you're right. However, my "at the same time" was to suggest that you lose haste as the sTP lance gains more sTP from it. Currently, you're losing 6% haste (Blitz, Wyrm+1, Bullwhip; Lancer's Back; a bit less because of the haste cap), which according to one your own posts actually outweighs the benefit of an X-hit build (During that post you placed 5-hits only equal to 3% haste).

[FailureMidgard]

I don't get what you're disagreeing with me on?

Edit: If you're suggesting that the WS DMG Lance can produce a 5-hit using all that, then you're right. However, my "at the same time" was to suggest that you lose haste as the sTP lance gains more sTP from it. Currently, you're losing 5% haste (Blitz, Wyrm+1, Bullwhip; a bit less depending on how much haste you're packing elsewhere), which according to one your own posts actually outweighs the benefit of an X-hit build (During that post you placed 5-hits only equal to 3% haste).

Last I checked 25% was still the cap. Otherwise, Lancer+2 x2 (11), Goading (5), Dusk+1/Timarli (4), Homam (3) = 23. Cap is 25.5ish from gear, that's a loss of 2.5%. I'm sure you'll come back and argue that AF3+2, Goading, Dusk+1/Timarli are all super hard to get, and I'll just respectfully disagree with you. But sure, if you are unable to come across that gear (all of which is obtainable with 3-4 people and minimal effort...you may have to wait to pop some stuff until after 22:00 zomg), then the StoreTP path becomes better (for now, will very likely be more options next patch - for both haste and storetp), but otherwise, no.

Also, my post you are referring to was 5hit vs 6hit, and a generalized haste loss comparison (also, I think I said 3% haste loss is where you should always choose 5hit, 4% is vague, 5% is never worth it, may have just implied one of 3 by listing the other 2 (and the 3rd being a logical conclusion)). We aren't discussing that here though...you are trying to say the StoreTP path is better because it's 5-hittable, when I'm saying you can reasonably 5-hit any 492 polearm on dragoon. 2.5% haste vs 10% WS damage is pretty close anyway, which is probably the argument you should be making at the moment (well, in marchx2+haste situations), but I'd still side with +10% WS dmg for a few reasons:
1. Dragoon has a valid reason to not be in marchx2+haste situations as it's a more realistic actual solo job than sam/war/mnk/drk, or at the very least, a lot of dragoons seem to solo more.
2. Next patch I think the StoreTP lance will be close to obsolete, assuming you have reasonable access to proper gear. I'm sure there will be some sort of haste -or- storetp gain somewhere, which will benefit the weapon not at haste cap (either in dropping storeTP to pick up haste, or just picking up the added haste) more than the 1 at all. Furthermore, there will most likely be more trials added for both weapons. The +WS dmg will (hopefully) add more WS dmg (making it 15% perhaps?), and the StoreTP will likely add more StoreTP...which will at best let you gain a little bit of attack or accuracy or something, which aren't too important.
3. I feel there are a lot of times where average DPS is not as important anymore. Between all 2h DD now having Sekkanoki (opening with 2 WSes) + Meditate, Dragoons having some much better jumps for TP gain, and Eve atma, a lot of fights you can open up with a burst of damage, then sustain what you can until it dies. This skews most realistic situations away from average DPS to "how much damage can you do in X time starting with all cooldowns up and 200+TP", which favors +10% WS damage more.

[Yugl]

Last I checked 25% was still the cap. Otherwise, Lancer+2 x2 (11), Goading (5), Dusk+1/Timarli (4), Homam (3) = 23. Cap is 25.5ish from gear, that's a loss of 2.5%.

See, this was different from what you offered earlier. What you suggested earlier, you stated had 22.5% haste, which would have made it a 3% haste difference. The last point in the parenthesis next to the 5% (Noted in my edit) denotes the fact that is a cap and I'm well aware of it.

I'm sure you'll come back and argue that AF3+2, Goading, Dusk+1/Timarli are all super hard to get, and I'll just respectfully disagree with you. But sure, if you are unable to come across that gear (all of which is obtainable with 3-4 people and minimal effort...you may have to wait to pop some stuff until after 22:00 zomg), then the StoreTP path becomes better (for now, will very likely be more options next patch - for both haste and storetp), but otherwise, no.

I considered making this argument because if posters are going to get those pieces of a gear, they really should have an OAT lance. I objected against making this retaliation because BG is not about pragmatics.

Also, my post you are referring to was 5hit vs 6hit, and a generalized haste loss comparison (also, I think I said 3% haste loss is where you should always choose 5hit, 4% is vague, 5% is never worth it, may have just implied one of 3 by listing the other 2 (and the 3rd being a logical conclusion)). We aren't discussing that here though...you are trying to say the StoreTP path is better because it's 5-hittable, when I'm saying you can reasonably 5-hit any 492 polearm on dragoon. 2.5% haste vs 10% WS damage is pretty close anyway, which is probably the argument you should be making at the moment (well, in marchx2+haste situations), but I'd still side with +10% WS dmg for a few reasons:

In my initial account, I argued for a 5v6 hit comparison, but after I read your post, I switched the argument to one of Haste+goodies v 10% WS DMG.

1. Dragoon has a valid reason to not be in marchx2+haste situations as it's a more realistic actual solo job than sam/war/mnk/drk, or at the very least, a lot of dragoons seem to solo more.

While this is true outside of Abyssea, it's not as common in Abyssea because in order to maintain time, you need azure light, which is incredibly difficult. You probably can do it, it's just a real pain in the ass for almost zero rewards. If you're sub SAM, you're likely in a PT. If you're not sub SAM (i.e. solo mode), you need to make up for that 15sTP from SAM sub.

2. Next patch I think the StoreTP lance will be close to obsolete, assuming you have reasonable access to proper gear. I'm sure there will be some sort of haste -or- storetp gain somewhere, which will benefit the weapon not at haste cap (either in dropping storeTP to pick up haste, or just picking up the added haste) more than the 1 at all. Furthermore, there will most likely be more trials added for both weapons. The +WS dmg will (hopefully) add more WS dmg (making it 15% perhaps?), and the StoreTP will likely add more StoreTP...which will at best let you gain a little bit of attack or accuracy or something, which aren't too important.

Ya, patches randomball the situation and it does make me question the selection. Support for sTP lance rolls when we get more sTP since it opens up more slots for haste (We can cap haste now, but sTP necessities fend off its viability), which was my original point. It also gives us access to something that is MORE effective when not using an OAT weapon: Double Attack and Delay Reduction (Overflow of sTP). Finally, sTP lance benefits if we get A LOT of sTP such that we enable a 4-hit (Unlikely, but may happen in the future). Weaponskill lance takes the lead if a combination of STP+Haste options become available and as the WSDMG rises. I'm curious to see what comes next since WSDMG+10% was obvious, but I'm not certain of what's to follow. So, it really depends on what they throw at us next update. I personally hope for a WS body since Ares + Noct is near impossible to get people for at this point (Or access in the case of Noct).

3. I feel there are a lot of times where average DPS is not as important anymore. Between all 2h DD now having Sekkanoki (opening with 2 WSes) + Meditate, Dragoons having some much better jumps for TP gain, and Eve atma, a lot of fights you can open up with a burst of damage, then sustain what you can until it dies. This skews most realistic situations away from average DPS to "how much damage can you do in X time starting with all cooldowns up and 200+TP", which favors +10% WS damage more.

I might agree with this. I haven't had much time to play with my new Atmas (Actually, I've done exactly 2 Battles with them: Chloris + that other stupid Amnesia spamming Mandy NM), so I need more time to get the feel of how these Atmas change the game. That also brings up another interest point, which is that future updates introduce new atmas. With VV + RR, I can only hope for a superior STP atma (Make 4-hiit build work!).

[FailureMidgard]

See, this was different from what you offered earlier. What you suggested earlier, you stated had 22.5% haste, which would have made it a 3% haste difference. The last point in the parenthesis next to the 5% (Noted in my edit) denotes the fact that is a cap and I'm well aware of it.

So you know a way to get 22.5 on gear text? What I stated earlier was the actual haste (I was being more precise) as 23 on gear = 22.5 actually. Either way, you're short 2.5%, which requires 3% gear to fully cap, or 2% to hit 25. Either way, I'm not losing 6% haste, or anywhere near it.

I considered making this argument because if posters are going to get those pieces of a gear, they really should have an OAT lance. I objected against making this retaliation because BG is not about pragmatics.

I have no comment on the OAT lance vs these 2, as I haven't seen the math or done it myself, nor do I even have dragoon leveled (66 for cap atm), nor would I personally care to put myself through the trials needed for OAT as opposed to Stingray. All that being said, I think you are wrong. I think every item I listed except Dusk+1 is quite easily obtainable, and very pragmatic. Perhaps if Dragoon is your 10th job and you don't care about it at all, and you don't have any of that gear because you want it on other jobs, it's all quite reasonable to obtain.

I know for a fact Myrmecoleon, Lacovie, and every AF3+2 NM for Dragoon can be done with 4-6 people quite easily. I'm also fairly certain they can be done with 3 as well, but haven't tried most of em with 3. I havent done the Behemoth recently (actually, haven't done him at all since the very first time we killed him back when we were like the first NA shell to fight him), but I don't recall him being very hard (atmaless) and Thorny did it with 3-4 already, so ya...the hardest piece to get on that list is easily Aurum Body, which is still low-mannable but significantly more effort to get a popset and get the drop.

While this is true outside of Abyssea, it's not as common in Abyssea because in order to maintain time, you need azure light, which is incredibly difficult. You probably can do it, it's just a real pain in the ass for almost zero rewards. If you're sub SAM, you're likely in a PT. If you're not sub SAM (i.e. solo mode), you need to make up for that 15sTP from SAM sub.

You need more friends :/ Takes something like 8min of someone's visitant status to cap azure for you in an 85zone, maybe 20minutes max in an 80zone. Also, I guess not /sam you could use that lance + some of the storetp gear I listed to get a 5hit, but you would need more. That being said, usually a 5hit/sam translates pretty closely to a 6hit/notsam. I guess I'll give ya this one, but really I don't think it's asking much for 8minutes of people's time...

Ya, patches randomball the situation and it does make me question the selection. Support for sTP lance rolls when we get more sTP since it opens up more slots for haste (We can cap haste now, but sTP necessities fend off its viability), which was my original point. It also gives us access to something that is MORE effective when not using an OAT weapon: Double Attack and Delay Reduction (Overflow of sTP). Finally, sTP lance benefits if we get A LOT of sTP such that we enable a 4-hit (Unlikely, but may happen in the future). Weaponskill lance takes the lead if a combination of STP+Haste options become available and as the WSDMG rises. I'm curious to see what comes next since WSDMG+10% was obvious, but I'm not certain of what's to follow. So, it really depends on what they throw at us next update. I personally hope for a WS body since Ares + Noct is near impossible to get people for at this point (Or access in the case of Noct).

I disagree with ever seeing a 4hit sans Sam roll. You need some 88 StoreTP (and before you try to mention extra hits - the less hits you're using to hit 100, the more reliant your WS tp return becomes - I mention this specifically because a lot of builds are heavy storetp on TP phase, and low on WS, this becomes increasingly difficulty going to lower and lower builds). 93 is about the max Sam can reasonably attain at the moment with virtually every slot using StoreTP + mainjobtrait(25)+merits(10). That's Rose/White/AF3+2, Unkai, Brutal, Usu, Rajas, Hoard, Tact, Goading, AF3+2, Usu.

I might agree with this. I haven't had much time to play with my new Atmas (Actually, I've done exactly 2 Battles with them: Chloris + that other stupid Amnesia spamming Mandy NM), so I need more time to get the feel of how these Atmas change the game. That also brings up another interest point, which is that future updates introduce new atmas. With VV + RR, I can only hope for a superior STP atma (Make 4-hiit build work!).

It's not just atmas, it's also the fact you're likely to be doing a lot of fighting vs single popped NMs with not too much HP and gaining Sekkanoki and the new jumps. Then Atmas on top of that.

[Yugl]

Again, I'm not stating you loose 6% haste. I took your 22.5% and 25.5% values to be of the same type (So you would be missing 3% if that were the case). The pragmatics bit is a joke about how arguments of viability are unacceptable on BG. The people that are asking about which Stingray are either using it for a temporary purpose, which supports the sTP lance, or cannot get an OAT lance. If they cannot get an OAT lance, it wouldn't be surprising to find that they cannot obtain the gear you listed. Hence, I decided not to factor it into their specific circumstance. Ya, I don't know half the people in FFXI anymore and the ones that do know me either owe me, but won't pay me back; are too busy to help with that; complain about stones; have shit planned for me to do (On SCH because apparently, their RDM mule can't handle nuking!) that doesn't involve me soloing; will take is as a cue to demand that I solo gear/seals for them; fake afk; or annoy me too much to ask them. Four hit is unlikely with our current situation I agree. That said, I don't think *anyone* anticipated RR atma, which leads to my last point. Furthermore, if a STP atma is available, it's likely to eclipse all other buffs because 1)fSTR is likely to be capped 2) We'll probably see another Lunar Abyssite next update 3) dDEX is capped 4) anything beating sTP at this point would probably have to grant large sums of haste (Or DA).