What's Better?

[Neisan]

Gonna go with Teal over NQ Weskit, and possibly a wash with HQ.

[Mercilessturtle]

Ah, true <_<; Well, when I agreed with him I was assuming situations where Attack wasn't entirely worthless.

Yeah just going through the "if attack matters" case now, and I think perle is still above ebody. It's 2 str and 7 atk vs 2% crit rate. I think you'd need to have unrealistically low attack for 7 attack to do much. If you aren't capped on attack, you are probably at least in the 2-2.2 range, where 65% of the time the attack is still doing nothing because you got a crit. You are looking at what, bumping up 35% of your hits from 2.0 to 2.02? Assuming 2.0 pdif I have it as zahak/grim tied > perle > ebody. Unless I am messing something up, or there is some possible way to need accuracy, I don't see a reason to use ebody in abyssea at all (assuming RR/VV, etc).

imaginary 10 str body:
(108 + 20 + 71) * 3.1 * 1.25 * (2.0 * 0.36 + 3.0 * 0.64) * (1.45 * 0.64 + 1.0 * 0.36)
2622.0717599999994

ebody:
(108 + 20 + 71) * 3.1 * 1.25 * (2.04 * 0.36 + 3.0 * 0.64) * (1.45 * 0.64 + 1.0 * 0.36)
2636.3739696

zahak:
(108 + 20 + 71) * 3.1 * 1.25 * (2.0 * 0.33 + 3.0 * 0.67) * (1.45 * 0.67 + 1.0 * 0.33)
2679.663230625001

perle:
(108 + 20 + 71) * 3.1 * 1.25 * (2.02 * 0.34 + 3.0 * 0.66) * (1.45 * 0.66 + 1.0 * 0.34)
2667.19768655
(108 + 20 + 70) * 3.1 * 1.25 * (2.02 * 0.34 + 3.0 * 0.66) * (1.45 * 0.66 + 1.0 * 0.34)
2653.7946831000004

grim:
(108 + 20 + 73) * 3.1 * 1.25 * (2.08 * 0.36 + 3.0 * 0.64) * (1.45 * 0.64 + 1.0 * 0.36)
2677.3161407999996

[Tanag]

Gonna go with Teal over NQ Weskit, and possibly a wash with HQ.

Thanks. I just wasn't sure if weskit augments could push it ahead or what.

[ronin sparthos]

Sooo I put together a holy bolt set recently:

Apollo's
Rose strap
Virtus bow
holy bolt

Maats cap
Arcticers torque
Volley earring
Vision earring

Gules+ 1
praeda
Arewe
Rajas

jaeger or amemts+ 1
pythia sash+ 1
Currently wanting those pants from ixion mob in vunknerl
Praeda.

I can get 21 tp a hit, with vitrus, but am curious if machine bow would be more ideal.
Currently, my true flights were/are doing between 1700-2100 dmg with either bow, and the AE on the bolts procs around 70-90 add. Dmg.

I tried a few combinations of atmas, but got no definative numbers (yet)
basically wondering if the WS numbers are the same, (trueflight doesn't calc on weapons dmg) should I be shooting 10 quick times, or 5 slow times?
Should I move to a 6hit and work on the add. Effect with more mind?

This was done with /sam, possibly worth moving to/ war?

Last thing I remember about Holy Bolt build was that Lyft Crossbow supposedly gave +MND and a TP Bonus depending on the number of members in a party. It's an xbow worth looking into.

What were your Atmas? Beyond and a MND atma (Allure?)? Curious to see how this would preform on Abyssean NMs as I haven't touched such a build in ages. If you want to maximize the add effect: you'd need to stack more mind.

About Virtus vs something like Lyft/Machine it'd come down to what you want to do. If you want to just TP faster for more add dmg then Lyft/Machine serve their purposes but Virtus would be the better option for a better WS spread.

What were your Trueflights on btw?

[Clannagh]

Pole Grip v Brave Grip in Abyssea only. Is Brave Grip worth using for the added crit damage bonus, or Pole Grip still the best assuming 6-hit without Rose Strap?

85WAR/SAM

Gear:
Barb. Bhuj
Grip
Ravager's Orb
Turban
Torque
Assault Earring
Brutal Earring
Aurum Cuirass
Dusk Gloves
Rajas
Iota Ring
Cuch Mantle
VBelt
AF3+1 Legs
AF3+1 Feet

[shepardG]

Trueflights were on pachypodiums, atma's were beyond and GH, I actually thought about lyft, i've actually wanted to do some more testing on that group of weapons, just been lazy. Ill see about getting some tests on NM's before I get to excited about build potentials but It seems like it could be a useful build... next thing to test is darkling bolts. /sigh

[TheDirtyHobo]

Pole Grip v Brave Grip in Abyssea only. Is Brave Grip worth using for the added crit damage bonus, or Pole Grip still the best assuming 6-hit without Rose Strap?

85WAR/SAM

Gear:
Barb. Bhuj
Grip
Ravager's Orb
Turban
Torque
Assault Earring
Brutal Earring
Aurum Cuirass
Dusk Gloves
Rajas
Iota Ring
Cuch Mantle
VBelt
AF3+1 Legs
AF3+1 Feet

Brave Grip would probably win with Razed Ruin, and assuming you can keep your x-hit with Sword Strap, that should always win over Pole Grip (Which you can in Abyssea with 2 ticks of VV/taking damage, you'd need 4 more STP outside Abyssea to do it). But really, if you've already got Aurum Cuirass, just use Rose and make a 5-hit build. Goading is the only thing you'd need that should take more than a day to get.

[Byrthnoth]

Actually, Brave Grip is one of the worst grips you can use with Razed Ruins. It gives you a <3% damage bonus on ~50% of your swings (~1%). Pole gives you less than 2%, but more than 1%. Claymore gives you more than both. Spear (if it doesn't hurt anything) is better than Claymore. Rose (if it helps something) is better than Spear.

[TheDirtyHobo]

Spear

I'm assuming you mean Sword Strap, unless you're really advocating using a DEX+3 grip.

Also, just trusting at face value, but Wiki says Brave is a 3.5% increase to crit damage. If you're hitting about ~50% crit rate, that's a ~1.75% increase in damage? Unless you're already at the crit damage cap, of course.

[Villian]

I find pole grip better than brave. I believe War/nin can get 6 hits Gaxe with ~23-25/26?% haste and around 40-47% DA with VV/RR atma in abyss.

[Yugl]

I find pole grip better than brave. I believe War/nin can get 6 hits Gaxe with ~23-25/26?% haste and around 40-47% DA with VV/RR atma in abyss.

They can also get 5-hit, which is superior?

[Clannagh]

Brave Grip would probably win with Razed Ruin, and assuming you can keep your x-hit with Sword Strap, that should always win over Pole Grip (Which you can in Abyssea with 2 ticks of VV/taking damage, you'd need 4 more STP outside Abyssea to do it). But really, if you've already got Aurum Cuirass, just use Rose and make a 5-hit build. Goading is the only thing you'd need that should take more than a day to get.

Unfortunately Barb. Bhuj is a 488 delay GAxe, which means 5-hitting it is going to be a huge pain. I'm working out 19.7TP/hit with Rose Strap, White Tathlum, Brutal/Attila's, Aurum Cuirass, Hoard/Rajas, Tactical Mantle and Goading Belt. Would be possible using a 504 delay but would need to WS in majority of it. Unless there's some other STP gear I'm forgetting. I know it's possible with the OAT GAxe however since it's 514 delay.

Edit: This would work in abyssea for 5-hit, but not outside unfortunately. :/

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, meant Sword.

Here is how Brave works out:
35% base (45% with AF3+2 feet, 48% with Cavaros mantle too but you'd never use that with Brave grip because you'd break the cap)
4% from Brave Grip (We'll round up, though iirc my testing put it at 3%)
CritBoost*CritpDIF*CritRate + NormpDIF*(1-CritRate) = Damage
(1.35 or 1.39)*2.75*.54 + 1.8*.46 = damage (2.83275 vs. 2.89215)
With Brave / Without Brave = about a 2% increase if you assume a 4% boost from Brave grip. 1.5% if you use a 3% increase from Brave grip. 1.9% increase if you use AF3+2 feet and assume 4, 1.4% increase with 3%. These damage gains apply to TP phase and WS damage equally.

Pole with a 27% build (Neck 2%, Legs 5%, Merits/Brutal/JA 20%) gives a 1.57% increase in DPS (and TP gain, but not entirely WS damage unless you're using Ukko's because DA can't proc on the third swing of RR).

3% increase in crit rate using the above formula is about a 2% increase in damage. It applies to TP and WS damage equally.

idk, I remember the math coming out favoring Claymore more the last time. Anyway, it's still better than a 3% Brave grip (which is what I'm fairly sure Brave is).

[Villian]

If /sam sj? I said war/nin for people who likes to /nin, sry if I didn't mention about /sam.

[Yugl]

Nah, that's me forgetting about the sub. I just have a natural tendency to assume SAM sub for most stuff now.

[Villian]

Speaking of critical damage increase back piece, that's better than str/attack for war?

[Kidnoftle]

Yes

[TheDirtyHobo]

I find pole grip better than brave. I believe War/nin can get 6 hits Gaxe with ~23-25/26?% haste and around 40-47% DA with VV/RR atma in abyss.

Just out of curiousity, where are you pulling 40% DA out of, let alone 47%?

Natural: 10%
Merits: 5%
VV: 5%
Brutal: 5%
Askar Korazin: 2%
Pole Grip: 2%
Ravager's Gorget: 2%
Ravager's Cuisses +2: 5%

That all only totals to 37%. Only thing I can see adding is the magian DA Great Axe.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Kunlun +1

[Villian]

My bad on that DA% was a bit off since I didn't map it out.

DA Gaxe/Pole(2%)/white tath
AF+2(4%)/rav gorget (2%)/Brutal(5%)/attalia
Timarli/Timarli/Rajas/Hoard
Tactical mantle/Goarding/AF+2(5%)/AF+2

3% from cap gear haste. Can cap haste with bullwhip belt/blitz ring. Not sure how much stp gears you need for 6 hits with regain(2tp/tic) atma.