Level Cap to Be Lifted to New Heights! (08/25/2010)

[Sho]

I think what you are failing to realize Spider, is that there's no way to anticipate what SE will do with Accession/Manifestation for /SCH use. The simple fact that SE has, in the past, targeted subjobs and nerfed/buffed them means they can make anything they want Accession-able in future.

Now that SCH will get Regen III, that means WHM will get Regen IV before 99 to maintain balance... do you believe it will not be compatible with Accession? If so, what basis do you have other than "SCH will not be able to cast the spell, so no"? Also, do you really believe that, based on your inference with Accession, that SCH will not get Cure V between lvl 85 and 99? Really? Lets not forget the fact that PUP gets Cure V and VI.

[Fiarlia]

While I agree about most of the theory, Spider-Dan, I wanted to point out that Enspell II's could have been arbitrarily blocked because of the way the formula works. Enhancing Magic skill on hit, AoE'd, would be a lot of zero additional effects if they're calculated on the receivers skill level. And I know that Stoneskin, Phalanx and Enspell I's AoE'd are based on casters, but Enspell II is done per hit, and I don't think they'd code it so every hit of the pt will have to run a check on the RDM/SCH current Enhancing Magic stat.

Overall I agree, but I don't really think Enspell II's are a shining example or even really worth mention in the debate you're having.

Baramnesia though totally lends more credibility to your argument though. I mean, WHM already have the AoE version of the same spell, and it's the only single target barstatus spell that can't be Accession'd.

[Spider-Dan]

Now that SCH will get Regen III, that means WHM will get Regen IV before 99 to maintain balance... do you believe it will not be compatible with Accession? If so, what basis do you have other than "SCH will not be able to cast the spell, so no"?

No, I don't. My basis is that there is no spell that works with Accession/Manifestation that SCH cannot cast. But if you ignore the supporting evidence, then sure, there's no evidence to support that belief.

Also, do you really believe that, based on your inference with Accession, that SCH will not get Cure V between lvl 85 and 99? Really?

Yes, really. RDM had Cure5 (a long time ago) and SE stripped it. I don't think any other job will get Cure5 unless Cure6 is somehow discovered (or buffed) to completely outclass Cure5.

But to answer your question, I do believe the theory holds. It seems reasonable that no other job would get Cure5, and Accession doesn't work with it, so I consider that confirmation.

Lets not forget the fact that PUP gets Cure V and VI.

PUP does not "get" Cure5; their automaton does. (This is relevant in the same sense that SMN does not "get" Curaga4; Light Spirit does.) And given that automatons can already cast essentially hate-free cures with virtually limitless MP, I don't think balance will be an issue. Pet curing is limited by command delay and prioritized AI logic; it is not comparable to player-casted spells.

[Spider-Dan]

While I agree about most of the theory, Spider-Dan, I wanted to point out that Enspell II's could have been arbitrarily blocked because of the way the formula works. Enhancing Magic skill on hit, AoE'd, would be a lot of zero additional effects if they're calculated on the receivers skill level. And I know that Stoneskin, Phalanx and Enspell I's AoE'd are based on casters, but Enspell II is done per hit, and I don't think they'd code it so every hit of the pt will have to run a check on the RDM/SCH current Enhancing Magic stat.

Since when does "it wouldn't be very good" qualify as a reason for Accession to be prevented from working? The game lets players cast all kinds of weak buffs; it'll let you cast Rolling Thunder with /SMN if you really want to.

You can come up with complicated, convoluted explanations like "it would be overpowered" or "it would be underpowered" or what have you... or you can just use the simple, straightforward explanation: SCH can't cast it.

[Fiarlia]

Since when does "it wouldn't be very good" qualify as a reason for Accession to be prevented from working? The game lets players cast all kinds of weak buffs; it'll let you cast Rolling Thunder with /SMN if you really want to.

You can come up with complicated, convoluted explanations like "it would be overpowered" or "it would be underpowered" or what have you... or you can just use the simple, straightforward explanation: SCH can't cast it.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm pointing out the argument people against your theory would likely use: Enspell II's could be arbitrarily blocked, for this reason.

I told you, I agree with you.

[Plow]

Or other jobs.

Yeah, even just moving to a point where you don't need 3 brd + 3 cor, none of whom will remain in for the fight, to get "full" buffs.

[Malacite]

Did you completely ignore every response?

Sacrifice cannot be cast outside of party.
Enspell2 cannot be cast outside of party.
Phalanx2 cannot be cast outside of party.
All are prohibited from working with Accession.

What do you claim the common thread is on those?


...or, SE doesn't want non-SCHs casting AoE spells that SCH cannot cast...


Why would you believe that Manifestation + Drain2 would stack HP boost? Do you also believe that Manifestation + Absorb-INT results in virtually unlimited INT boost?


Your example doesn't actually explain why Accession Haste is "overpowered" at all, nor does it explain why relatively harmless spells like Baramnesia or Enspell2 don't work. It has no empirical basis and can be summed up as, "spells that are 'overpowered' can't be AoEed... except that some mediocre spells can't be AoEed anyway... and some extremely powerful spells, like Refresh, can... so basically you just have to try it and see." Consequently, it has zero predictive value.

In contrast, the SCH-castable theory successfully predicted that SCH would get Regen3, and I'm pretty sure that you aren't willing to go out on a limb and claim that it'll be wrong about Shell5.

Honestly, can you not think for yourself? You really don't see why Haste + Accession would be overpowered at all?

[Spider-Dan]

Honestly, can you not think for yourself? You really don't see why Haste + Accession would be overpowered at all?

Nope. Feel free to explain away.

In your explanation, please account for the fact that Pro/Shell can be Accessioned and can be cast out-of-party (even though Pro-ra/Shellra are self-target only; you can't even target it at party members and cast it at them from a distance), Cure can be Accessioned and cast out-of-party (even though Curaga is party-only), and non-Erase -nas can be Accessioned and cast out of party (when WHM, the premier healing job in the game, needs to use an ability with a 10 minute recast to do the same thing).

Oh, and if you are feeling particularly frisky, feel free to explain how one of the most powerful spells in the game (Refresh) can be Accessioned.

[Yugl]

At first I was skeptical of Dan's proposal, but it seems legitimate thus far. Consider the statement "If SCH cannot eventually cast the spell, then the spell cannot be accessioned" (Passive voice...). If we assume that Refresh is available as SCH/RDM next update, this statement is potentially true. Furthermore, you can accession cures and protect, which is a counterexample to the claim that the reason cure V is not accessionable is because players can cast cure V on outside members.

[Jesifromgaruda]

Honestly, can you not think for yourself? You really don't see why Haste + Accession would be overpowered at all?

It wouldn't be.

The reason for this is because they think that RDMs and WHMs will get bored and start to lose interest if they don't have to cast haste a billion times a fight.

They even said with the new update and /SCH, they would add more things for RDM to do during fights. I guess they couldn't come up with anything, so they just didn't let them accession haste.

[jimbobsonofgod]

Accession haste would be as broken as a blood pact that gives everyone haste.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Why am I not surprised that its a handful of BG's most irrelevant(and frequent) know-nothings that are disagreeing with a fairly straight-forward train of thought? Dan may not have any empirical evidence that his theory is law, but to deny that its the most logical means to explaining and predicting the path Accession and Manifestation are on is nothing short of foolery.

Additionally -not that this really needs any sort of reiteration- suggesting that Haste being subject to Accession would be in any way overpowered is ridiculous, and just serves to exhibit just how little you know about this(easy) game.

[NynJa]

but Drain II is pretty fucking obvious - That's a hell of a lot of HP added to your max with enough mobs, which would lead to some pretty janky Souleater abuse.

I'd just like to point out, judging how Mantra and Drain2 dont stack, I dont think the game would take the HP drain from every target hit and add it to your HP pool, probably just the target in question.

[Taruking]

Taruking still fighting yet another moronic point to the death?

Here's a hint: adding useless spells to a useless job will not make it any more sought after.

- Elemental ninjutsu will receive a damage increase.

Great minds think alike. I am sorry you are too dumb to understand a boost to elemental ninjitsu can potentially be beneficial to the job class.

Hope SE actually increase the accuracy too (esp. against HNM), not much of a use if they get resisted all the time.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Did you just refer to Square Enix's development team as a "great mind"?

[Draylo]

How many people here could create a successful MMO and do everything flawlessly?

[Hyan]

How many people here could create a successful MMO and do everything flawlessly?

This forum is full of professional game designers, we should start our own company.

[Snick]

Great minds think alike. I am sorry you are too dumb to understand a boost to elemental ninjitsu can potentially be beneficial to the job class.

Hope SE actually increase the accuracy too (esp. against HNM), not much of a use if they get resisted all the time.

OH BOY FINALLY THE TERRIBLE MENACE OF OURYU CAN BE KILLED!

Yes, I can reuse that joke.

[Milkster]

This forum is full of professional game designers, we should start our own company.

They already started the company, made award winning games and dissolved said company because they were bored... in a day.

[Plow]

Great minds think alike. I am sorry you are too dumb to understand a boost to elemental ninjitsu can potentially be beneficial to the job class.

Hope SE actually increase the accuracy too (esp. against HNM), not much of a use if they get resisted all the time.

Sure, it's beneficial... for soloing. His point stands, unless the boost is freaking massive, it will do absolutely nothing to entice anyone to use a ninja in group scenarios.