Tanaka blames foreign sites for rumors + XP Discussion

[Yoli]

The problem is the flip side - SE's not entitled to a monthly fee, just because they lay out rules.

If people don't like it (and they don't), they will do other things with their time/money. That's loose/loose for pretty much everyone involved who was hoping the game would take off and work, including SE. They can lay out whatever rules they want, but to keep people adhering to them and to keep dragging in a decent income, those rules have to be reasonably palatable to a reasonable amount of people. The reaction here, concerning surplus, is overwhelmingly negative. I'd say it's at least 80% negative, with maybe 10 or 15% not caring, and almost no one actively thinking it was a wonderful innovation.

I don't want the game to fail. It has stuff I like in it. Lots of stuff. You can't simply say "if you don't like surplus, this isn't the game for you. You should walk away" because many other things do help make it "the game for me".

SE seems to have listened to people though (which makes sense, since it caused quite a stir). I bet surplus will be eased in Open Beta, and maybe even a bit more so for the actual release. I'll try the game out, see what I think, and then that'll be that. I don't think these threads are serving much of a purpose now that everyone's had a chance to vent, because change is already in motion so to speak. We'll just have to see what happens.

[ringthree]

Apparently you don't know what "hence" means. Jesus H. Christ.

What word do you think the opposite of playing "fast and narrowly focused" can be summed up by? Something other than "casual?" Does "casual" playing in an MMORPG not generally assume slower character development, dispersed interests/focus, or a combination of the two?

Stop straw-manning this into anyone forcing anyone else to turn off a game. There's nothing of the sort going on here. They want you to keep playing, only with variety of disciplines. If you play a game, you play by the rules laid forth and stop feeling entitled to rules based on your personal preference because the game has a monthly fee that you're not obligated to sign up for.

You are just wrong. A casual in WoW can have 10 level 80 characters on 10 different servers. They could level 4-5 characters at once. A hardcore raider may only log on 2-4 times a week for a couple of hours at best.

So I will say it again, you are making a bad logical leap between time/pace and intensity of play. What you are not getting is that any kind of artificial limitation you put on players will cause them to log out instead of playing. I have a feeling you are the kind of person that assumes they know about MMO's because you play one. If you look at Blizzard's development trends and the attitude that Ghostcrawler takes, you can see what SE is doing is in the stone ages compared to current thought on MMO development. If you want players to do something, you incentivize it, you don't deter players.

Another poor argument that people like you make is that if you don't like it then don't play. Well, duh, but SE wants us to play. They want us to pay. SE finally is recognizing this fact in FFXI. But it looks like they are trying to remake all of their original mistake from FFXI in FFXIV. If SE implements bad systems without considering the player base, then the player is going to take their ball (read: cash) and go home.

The right way to do something like this: Rested XP in WoW. The wrong way to do something like this: Surplus XP in FFXIV.

[miokomioko]

Your definition of "character development" is for some reason limited to base level? We have arrived at an impasse.

The loudest voices of complaint here have noticeably mutated into simply biased business advice for Square-Enix because they want a new video game that caters to their personal play style.

I realize they are fruitlessly trying to level a playing field that cannot be leveled, and should not be leveled. It's a bad move financially, especially with the type of community outrage (read: nerdrage) that results these days when something doesn't fit nicely into the "hardcore-gamer" tastes. The people who it affects the most bitch the loudest because all they do is internet all day long anyways. It's difficult to actually ascertain how much revenue is being sacrificed to make the game more accessible for everyone.

I think they could easily adjust it so it's a bonus instead of a penalty and nerf exp/skill entirely. No one would be the wiser and it makes a lot better press.

It's still difficult to understand why people think that nothing is going to change from here on out. They've said it wasn't implemented properly. They've said it was going to be changed/adjusted. They've said they were going to base it largely off of tester feedback. They've given you every reason to believe they know everyone hates the idea and they want it to be less intrusive. It's just that their game is built on the concept of each individual character being versatility in multiple disciplines. They aren't going to scrap that idea because some people eat/sleep at their desks.

[Callisto]

I think what he's trying to say, is that for example someone can log in to XI 18 hours a week, spend all 18 hours a week camping Kings and would be considered a 'hardcore' player, while someone who played 36 hours a week but spent the entire time chatting with shellmates, running around town doing crafting here and there aside from a couple of goof-off eco-warrior runs with their social shell and be considered a 'causal'.

[ringthree]

I think what he's trying to say, is that for example someone can log in to XI 18 hours a week, spend all 18 hours a week camping Kings and would be considered a 'hardcore' player, while someone who played 36 hours a week but spent the entire time chatting with shellmates, running around town doing crafting here and there aside from a couple of goof-off eco-warrior runs with their social shell and be considered a 'causal'.

Additionally, the limitations used by SE so far do not deter hardcore play vs. casual play. They just deter play, full stop.

Like I said casual doesn't equate with slow, or less time played. If you want to make something casual, you over reward low and mid-level play, so that people feel rewarded but don't feel like they have to be in game all the time. WoW has cornered the market on casual play (perhaps far too well), and they did it by over rewarding players, not by making players feel like they have hit a brick wall.

[miokomioko]

I think what he's trying to say, is that for example someone can log in to XI 18 hours a week, spend all 18 hours a week camping Kings and would be considered a 'hardcore' player, while someone who played 36 hours a week but spent the entire time chatting with shellmates, running around town doing crafting here and there aside from a couple of goof-off eco-warrior runs with their social shell and be considered a 'causal'.

Which is why I meant it could be less playtime, less item-driven events, less focused on one class, less this, less that, or any combination thereof. I would consider the above two examples to be almost equal in intensity. Playing a shitload while not progressing much isn't less "hardcore" of a player to me than someone who logs in for a group event and immediately logs back out.

It's obviously a subjective term with way too many variables that is never going to be agreed upon.

Additionally, the limitations used by SE so far do not deter hardcore play vs. casual play. They just deter play, full stop.

Like I said casual doesn't equate with slow, or less time played. If you want to make something casual, you over reward low and mid-level play, so that people feel rewarded but don't feel like they have to be in game all the time. WoW has cornered the market on casual play (perhaps far too well), and they did it by over rewarding players, not by making players feel like they have hit a brick wall.

Good lord, why are you stuck on this? There is no full-stop on anything but constantly grinding away at ONE SINGULAR ACTIVITY for long periods of time ONCE A WEEK. Why is this the end of the world in a game focused on well-rounding your character through 18+ different disciplines? Is it because all you care about doing is leveling Gladiator to the level cap within days of launch and have no intentions of touching anything else?

[Katlan]

This is so stupid. Its like 5 ppl who like the system vs the world. And they only like it because ppl can't wtf get 50 in 1 week because they can't. who the fuck cares how fast others lv or do shit? Does that hinder your ability to enjoy the game? No, it shouldn't.. if it does, don't play mmo's or go play XIV (lol). These magical grinding limits wont suddenly make you up there w/ the hardcore or even semi-hardcore crowd. You will still be a casual.. want to know why? Because when it comes to end game you can't devote the amount of time others can. so stfu SE Def Force. Its a system to prevent ppl from hitting lv cap too fast.. this system has ZERO to do w/ Hardcore vs Casual

[miokomioko]

It's a bunch of nerds raging and generating embellished negative press because it didn't turn out to be the exact style of game they were looking for... while it's still in beta (lol).

[Lordender]

I'll tell you one thing, I was more excited for this game before all of this info started to come out. I would be lying if I told people I still have high enthusiasm to rush down to my local gamestop to buy this game. I can only make judgements on what i've personally seen while playing the BETA and thus far i'm still unimpressed by what I saw. I know what people will say, BETA, BETA, BETA but the basic concept just seemed rather boring to me.

Everyone will blow through their guildleve's then they will grind until surplus time then switch and level something that compliments their "main job" while mix and matching in crafting jobs inbetween. I know there will be more than this to do come retail(hopefully).

As on the fence as I am about FFXIV i'm still not convinced enough to actually buy the game yet however i'm still going to give open beta a fair shot.

I have played both the 14 and cataclysm beta's and i'm far more impressed with what Blizzard has done in the cata beta so far. I'm only going to play one of these games and I really hope I see enough in open beta to change my opinion enough to get me to rush on down to gamestop and buy this game.

[Charismatic]

I don't see one single positive thing about this system. Sure it encourages people to level other classes but... any of the PLAY ALL DAY types would probably do it anyway to pimp out their main.
It's people like Minidragon who played all day but also had all jobs in FFXI at 75 and had multiple relics across his classes.

So... I mean, it's not like it changes much for these guys other than forcing them to do them all at once rather than one at a time which'll do little more than create inventory issues and annoy people because suddenly they can't get full exp on the class they want to play.

[Brodan]

edit: too slow.

[omegaB]

Which is why I meant it could be less playtime, less item-driven events, less focused on one class, less this, less that, or any combination thereof. I would consider the above two examples to be almost equal in intensity. Playing a shitload while not progressing much isn't less "hardcore" of a player to me than someone who logs in for a group event and immediately logs back out.

It's obviously a subjective term with way too many variables that is never going to be agreed upon.


Good lord, why are you stuck on this? There is no full-stop on anything but constantly grinding away at ONE SINGULAR ACTIVITY for long periods of time ONCE A WEEK. Why is this the end of the world in a game focused on well-rounding your character through 18+ different disciplines? Is it because all you care about doing is leveling Gladiator to the level cap within days of launch and have no intentions of touching anything else?

Do you really think people want to play 18 classes? do you really think i should want to run around looking for trees to cut down? I can see 2 to 3 classes being interesting, but 18? na.

And yeah they said that this was going to be a game where playstyle was up the player, party or group, diversify or focus on one thing. they have severely nerfed the focus on one thing aspect.

You cant be a pugilist all the time or you are nerfed, not only for grinding, but for quests, missions, exploring farming. leves. helping people.

and while you can avoid it by careful planning and consulting community sites to figure out max exp till penalty and recuperation times and what constitutes recuperation. Your whole playing style is determined by this Damoclean sword hanging over your head.

I literally remember in beta needing to get fire crystals for my blacksmith, and worrying that if i used my pugilist, i would be wasting Exp, or using up some of the exp i could get from a leve later.

And what have they put in the game to make this system easier to understand, is there a counter telling you how long till you can level a class without exp? a counter telling you how close it is? Going by their convoluted explanation and the number of people who dont understand the system after various explanations, do you think this system is good for a casual, pick up and play person?

bad system, very bad execution of a bad system. full of fail

[Brodan]

aren't ya'all a bit tired already? I doubt Komoto reads this tread anyway

[Jefe]

I'm a casual player and kinda like this idea, hence I will give FFXIV a chance.

[miokomioko]

Their very specific example of XIV's daily gameplay is as follows:

1) Leeroy starts trying out Gladiator for the first time and exp's on rats for a while. (leveling a sub)
2) He gets an invite and he switches to Thaumaturge, which is his highest class. (questing on main)
3) After they disband, he's walking by a river and decides to fish and catches some trout. (making money)
4) At the end of the day he starts doing some blacksmithing to repair his armor and weapons. (saving money)

The only somewhat contradicting thing from Square-Enix is the quote:

"Players may opt to specialize in one discipline, excelling in a single skill, or they may take a more general approach, making free use of the Armoury. The choice is yours."

While the choice is yours, its not going to benefit you as much as making use of your time to diversify between exping/looting/crafting/repairing... so it's not exactly false.

[Charismatic]

The choice isn't yours when you start gaining 0 exp.

[Fawkes]

It's just that their game is built on the concept of each individual character being versatility in multiple disciplines. They aren't going to scrap that idea because some people eat/sleep at their desks.

If someone follows SE's orders and only logs in to exp doing guildleves for a few hours every two days then they might not ever encounter surplus. The surplus system doesn't promote class switching for everyone. And I don't believe that's even it's intention.

I'm no math nerd, but I'm pretty sure someone could figure out the fastest possible time anyone could hit the cap due to this system. Maybe once we have the release version with exp amounts and specifics of surplus cooldown time figured out. But it's pretty much guaranteed to be a few weeks. It would be pointless if it wasn't at least a few weeks. So really, all this system is there for is to slow people down.

[miokomioko]

The choice isn't yours when you start gaining 0 exp.

Which is something I'm entirely against. It should floor at something greater than 0.

all this system is there for is to slow people down.

...and I think the slowing people down is to encourage diversity, not to mask lack of content.

[Kirb]

It's a bunch of nerds raging and generating embellished negative press

This pretty much.

I never had a problem with surplus, even playing in a presumably very unbalanced Phase 3 beta.

I'm not going to say that I like the system, but I am going to say that people are overreacting like hell.

It's gonna get toned down, exp gain rate is going to be tweaked, etc. They'll probably be turning the surplus exp
into an actual thing that you can allocate elsewhere. All of this shit is pretty much ado about nothing.

[Vuitton]

It's still difficult to understand why people think that nothing is going to change from here on out. They've said it wasn't implemented properly. They've said it was going to be changed/adjusted. They've said they were going to base it largely off of tester feedback. They've given you every reason to believe they know everyone hates the idea and they want it to be less intrusive. It's just that their game is built on the concept of each individual character being versatility in multiple disciplines. They aren't going to scrap that idea because some people eat/sleep at their desks.

This deserves to be quoted ad nausea until everyone stop bitching about how they're going to hypothetically spend 15 hours of pure skill-up/exp on one class (not the same as time logged in-game) and hit 0 exp and have to wait a week (because you know they got their 15 hours of pure exp all in on Sunday).