Komoto's Official Explanation of Surplus

[Lordender]

I hate the system as much as the next person but there isn't much to really discuss anymore about it until SE opens their mouth again about how its been tweaked or removed from the game. I would be really surprised if they scrapped it from the game because it seems like they put a lot of effort into into the system by explaining how they calculated it using the 8hr example they gave us to completely remove it from the game.

I don't know how anyone can defend it, it just seems like a "ghetto" solution to gate leveling progress until atleast the first content patch. A limit is a limit no matter how much it gets tweaked.

[BlackheartX]

At first I thought this thread was bad and then I went to the beta forums and it's even worse. SEDF vs like 2 trolls and their still at it pretty funny.

[sruon]

I hate the system as much as the next person but there isn't much to really discuss anymore about it until SE opens their mouth again about how its been tweaked or removed from the game. I would be really surprised if they scrapped it from the game because it seems like they put a lot of effort into into the system by explaining how they calculated it using the 8hr example they gave us to completely remove it from the game.

I don't know how anyone can defend it, it just seems like a "ghetto" solution to gate leveling progress until atleast the first content patch. A limit is a limit no matter how much it gets tweaked.

Pretty much this, the system itself doesn't bother me much (yet, haven't experienced it a single time since Alpha) but I really fail to see the goal of this as a whole and I fail to see even more how could someone possibly "defend" this, casual players will still suck and hardcores will still win.

SE really need to l2communicate

[Hyan]

http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2010/08/2...tem/#more-4948

Eorzeapedia's saying what I'm saying.

Lynch us!

...

XIV is truly a horizontal progressive game to the core. They're even taking it further than in XI.

Hater's gonna hate.

[omegaB]

http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2010/08/2...tem/#more-4948

Eorzeapedia's saying what I'm saying.

Lynch us!

theory is basically bullshit, because of two major factors.

Exp outside of this system doesnt actually decide how fast you can level each week for two reasons

1 time put in is unknown
2 efficency of exp gain is unknown.

So the main purpose of this system is not, in fact to allow you to level more jobs quicker, it is in fact to say screw exp, you can only gain X levels a week no matter what you do.
No matter how effecient your exp,
no matter how much time you spend

if they go to the logical conclusion, they should just give people exp each week for nothing. which is kind of where they are heading. If you want to get rid of grind, and appeal to ff players, make exp occur naturally whgile progressing and exploring the story. let people choose thier own pace through said things. give bonuses to those who explore more, and find out more in the game. thats closer to the general FF players mentality.
if however you want to build a good pvE mmo, then definately dont make it you get X exp per week no matter what, its stupid annoying, and galling.


And the overall fundamental mis assumption here is that without this system, they need to increase grinding. Let people hit cap, the content and hours remains the same in any equation.

[Brodan]

too bad that other then trowing explentives at it, you don't really refute anything.

[Hyan]

If you want to get rid of grind, and appeal to ff players, make exp occur naturally whgile progressing and exploring the story. let people choose thier own pace through said things. give bonuses to those who explore more, and find out more in the game. thats closer to the general FF players mentality.

Aww, so sweet and innocent. I'd like to paint a happy picture too. Where everyone is equal, there are no wars and everyone has food to eat. That's what the leaders of this world should do and not what they're doing now~

And the overall fundamental mis assumption here is that without this system, they need to increase grinding. Let people hit cap, the content and hours remains the same in any equation.

If this game is like XI in which you can easily do most of the endgame there is to do while leveling multiple jobs, that isn't the case.

Now you'd level multiple classes, THEN do the endgame. Notice the difference.

[Meresgi]

theory is basically bullshit, because of two major factors.

Exp outside of this system doesnt actually decide how fast you can level each week for two reasons

1 time put in is unknown
2 efficency of exp gain is unknown.

So the main purpose of this system is not, in fact to allow you to level more jobs quicker, it is in fact to say screw exp, you can only gain X levels a week no matter what you do.
No matter how effecient your exp,
no matter how much time you spend
.

There is nothing different about FFXIV's system then WoW, Aion, Warhammer, or any other MMO out there just like the article said. FFXIV's system is just dressed up differently for you, and allows you to experience more of the game then just a single class day in and day out. If the system wasn't in place, everyone here knows for a fact, people would just burn to max level on w/e skill class they could the fastest. They would post on the forums "What class levels fastest plz?!" and it would just be a race. I'm sorry, but the game IS about playing multiple classes and IS about giving to the community and taking back from it as well.

Again, having a threshold of say 60k xp for a week, when you need roughly 70k or w/e to level is the same as another MMO requiring you to have 600k one week then 1000k the next and so on. Same grind, FFXIV's just lets you do other shit.

[omegaB]

the premise is factual, the conclusion isnt connected to the facts
Fact every game must decide a level curve for progresssion
Fact this game chose to do a level Curve with a drop off to 0 based on what level they want you to reach

Not fact
you dont have to control how much time it takes a person to go through the curve
Not Fact
you dont have to make exp greater if you remove the 0 point
Not Fact
doing this doesnt change how fast people will get 3 or 4 jobs to cap
this system doesnt help anyone at all, the idea is a fear system, would you rather have surplus or would you rather have a longer grind, it is in fact incorrect that you need to do either.

Fact: under this system you will have the same problems as before, people wont be able to catch up to people, instead of being like there is no point to this game it takes too many hours a day, you have there is no point, it will take me 3 months to catch up with anyone.


The ps3 users, late adopters, and people who just pick up the game as it goes on will perpetually be always behind people who bought the game first with this system.
They will fall victim to whatever abuses could have been done by high levels existing before you that they are worried about.
The system is a lie, the only thing it truely does, is cap your experience growth per week thats all. there is no other benefit.


edit

Aww, so sweet and innocent. I'd like to paint a happy picture too. Where everyone is equal, there are no wars and everyone has food to eat. That's what the leaders of this world should do and not what they're doing now~



If this game is like XI in which you can easily do most of the endgame there is to do while leveling multiple jobs, that isn't the case.

Now you'd level multiple classes, THEN do the endgame. Notice the difference.

doing missions at an appropriate level is theoretcially correct

, however, most people will simply out level it and do it later. most casuals and late comers to ffxi didnt level at alarming speeds, however most of them didnt even try to get past rank 5 until they were 75, they may have taken 4 months to get to 75, and they still didnt do the content that was appropriate at level 40. why should now be different

[Hyan]

Not fact
you dont have to control how much time it takes a person to go through the curve
Not Fact
you dont have to make exp greater if you remove the 0 point

MM~HMMM

You don't have an argument. You say those are facts (or not? what the fuck?), but give us no proof or basis to those claims.

[ufo]

Maybe SE is doing this because you will be really gimped if you level just one job to cap. Like in FFXI if you leveled to 75 without a subjob.

[Meresgi]

Not fact
you dont have to control how much time it takes a person to go through the curve
.

Really because it IS a fact that every MMO Developer past, present and probably future does this. It's no different then putting enemies in a console game and dictating how long an average player will take to complete the game on the easiest and most direct route.

You must be trollin now if you think no one does this. Or that there is no need to do it.

Maybe SE is doing this because you will be really gimped if you level just one job to cap. Like in FFXI if you leveled to 75 without a subjob.

Pretty much the exact same thing. Just now they also want you to gather/craft to fix your own weapons, provide materials to the community and advanced the economy

[Hyan]

Maybe SE is doing this because you will be really gimped if you level just one job to cap. Like in FFXI if you leveled to 75 without a subjob.

No, they are doing this because A) they want to get ahead and B) they don't want to make the game too grindy vertically (exp per level grindy) to achieve their goal.

[Kaiyoko]

I don't see how this "realism" argument works at all. So if I work out for 15 hours straight, everything is going to be gravy when I switch from the treadmill to the elliptical? And I'd become just as "fatigued" beating eggs, knitting a sweater or catching fishing for the same amount of time? And if I work out 3 hours a day every day, my "endurance" is going to continue to be penalized until I approach an arbitrary 1 week limit upon which I will be magically released of this fatigue? And my body's resistance to this fatigue will never change as I develop? Shouldn't my character be growing huge muscles?! There's no way a little girl with Miqo'te noodle arms would be able to hold up a great axe.

Often times, what's "realistic" and what makes a good game are on opposite sides of the universe.



What is with all this shit flinging? Is accusing people of trolling for disagreeing with you really a productive argument?

That is what I've been saying. Your character should be gaining resistance to it, this is my whole point in the system being "realistic". Hence if you read posts you'd understand. I've stated that the system has more then they are telling us from my experience with it in P3. Your surplus's rank is linked to the resistance, and when that surplus rank increases it seems your surplus either takes longer to get to or recovers faster, or both.

The 15 hours straight is an estimate also. If you work 15 hours straight rl it might be a task not a severe as another. The more severe work will wear you down quicker. The same can be said about this system...

[Hyan]

That is what I've been saying. Your character should be gaining resistance to it, this is my whole point in the system being "realistic". Hence if you read posts you'd understand. I've stated that the system has more then they are telling us from my experience with it in P3. Your surplus's rank is linked to the resistance, and when that surplus rank increases it seems your surplus either takes longer to get to or recovers faster, or both.

Sounds interesting, what did you experience in P3?

[Kaiyoko]

Sounds interesting, what did you experience in P3?

Below is my experience with surplus, and might explain what exactly this "Bonus" part of surplus is.. Don't read if you wanna cause drama, just posting my experience to help calm the riots.

Spoiler: show

After reading this post on the NA forums the whole thing makes slightly more sense why there is a rank to surplus as well. In beta 3 I was able to reach rank 30 MAR w/o a problem. Kuro and Soap had exped with me a decent amount and we had noticed I would always gain quiet a bit more Skill then them when we all had surplus. I was normally 2-3 levels above them as well. One difference that I had early on to them was surplus rank. It started at 1 and rose to rank 15 on the first day on Phase 3, while my MAR rank was 17. They at this time had reached rank 15 CLASS with a surplus rank I believe highest i heard from Kuro was 8 at the end of day 1. I had started leveling before they logged on I believe and reached surplus to the point of only gaining 10% rank exp, while they had gained quiet a bit more. The next day the servers were shut down and we we're able to log on the day after our surplus had turned back yellow but their surplus was hitting them harder then me even though I had gained far more rank EXP then them.

The next week after this possible reset on Tues. I was able to level 2 days straight w/o having any surplus, and finally hit it again when I reached level 1/4 of the way into 24. Then I continued to exp through surplus reaching rank 20 surplus. I stopped for a day to work on smithing and was able to get that to 13 where I hit surplus for that, and grinded through that till rank 3 surplus. The next day my surplus had went away again to white after about 18 hours of being away from MAR. I hit the surplus threshold quickly again, but it did not seem to reach cap again at this point no matter how much I exped. I grinded constantly till 27 at this point and then decided to switch back to smithing rank 15 with rank 3 surplus. After a day away from smithing surplus was just as bad as the day before. The next day I returned to MAR where I started at white till 28 where I hit a 10% skill gain because of surplus. Returning to smithing it was white now, but I quickly returned to yellow with surplus.

I decided to grind at this point to close to 29 as I could. I hit surplus of 50% where I was having a hard time finding mobs that would give decent rank at this point so I was barely able to reach 29 with 1k rank into it. The next day leves/exp reset and ended up grinding through mine and others leves to 30 where I never reached surplus till about 2/3 way through 29, and it stayed at 10% of my rank exp at that point till 30.

The exp from phys always was declining never increased just how they said, so not gonna bother talking much about that. Did not seem to decrease as fast as rank though.

This leads me to believe that the surplus rank either increase the exp/time between each threshold or increase the rate of recovering from surplus. If this is true the best thing to do is grind like crazy to get your surplus rank high. I'm gonna test it in OB to makes sure, but through my experiences I'm fairly confident surplus acts as you body wearing down. However, the more you wear your body down, the faster it can recover and more endurance you have. So there seems to be a definite way around it.

Here post a few pages back.

Also, I wanna makes sure I'm on the right page because exp is getting thrown around, and I wanna know if you guys are talking physical or class exp. Because the physical is the one that doesn't makes sense to me why they are doing it. Class I'm fine with.

[omegaB]

you set a curve of exp. you dont have to decide how many weeks it takes to go through this.

the major difference with this curve is the 0 point, its not a continous curve. no matter how hard or how effieciently you play 0 (x) will always be 0

This system is equivalent in an offline game, to the game giving you no exp, and thus not allowing you to progress through the story for an amount of irl time. wait a week to go level.

Guild wars had you hit the level cap at level 20, that was about 1/3rd the way through the planned content. the rest of your progression through the game was based on milestones, finding skills, unlocking titles, and buying/finding armor.

This game initially wanted to scrap the exp curve all together

FFXI had most of its players at no exp gained for 5 years.

Do you still think it is impossible to not worry about how fast people hit the exp cap?

instead of worrying about content, they are foolishly reducing it to an exp thing, i really wish they had done away with exp entirely, it really would have been a better system

[Rothbardian]

There is nothing different about FFXIV's system then WoW, Aion, Warhammer, or any other MMO out there just like the article said. FFXIV's system is just dressed up differently for you, and allows you to experience more of the game then just a single class day in and day out. If the system wasn't in place, everyone here knows for a fact, people would just burn to max level on w/e skill class they could the fastest. They would post on the forums "What class levels fastest plz?!" and it would just be a race. I'm sorry, but the game IS about playing multiple classes and IS about giving to the community and taking back from it as well.

Again, having a threshold of say 60k xp for a week, when you need roughly 70k or w/e to level is the same as another MMO requiring you to have 600k one week then 1000k the next and so on. Same grind, FFXIV's just lets you do other shit.

First off, XIV's system is completely different than the other games you mentioned. At least you could still progress in those games without Bonus XP (Which it was actually a bonus). Their systems had a baseline experience on mobs, and then had a percentage increase in that baseline XP based on the amount of rested XP you had. It rewarded the player. Casuals and hardcores alike used rested XP (I don't know many who were on 24/7). XIV's system is essentially the total opposite. You have the mobs baseline experience (100%). You start off with 100% and the more you play, the less you end up getting until you reach 0% XP gained. Those other games you mentioned never cut off your experience completely. XIV's system is a punitive system, for both casual and hardcore alike. Your continuing to not understand this muddles the discussion.

As for your second assertion that this punitive restrictive system allows you to experience more of the game is unfounded, and dead-wrong. Lets for a moment imagine XIV in its current incarnation exactly the same except without this Fatigue system. Would you not be able to experience other parts of the game? No. This clearly demonstrates the restrictiveness of the system. No one was stopping you before the implementation of this system from playing any or all of the classes. All this Fatigue system does is restrict the players freedom of choice. I don't know that many people eager to pay a company money for punitive and restrictive systems, but if you want to than be my guest, but stop trying to mask the system for what it truely is.

I still don't understand why you care so much how other people play. The ultimate result of this system is going to be less people playing, and a worst experience for everyone because if FFXIV continues with this system, its not going to be the success you want it to be. No one is stopping you from playing whatever you want, whenever you want without this system.

I thought the game was about character progression, growth, and more freedom. This system is the complete opposite of that statement.

All I see from you is that instead of choosing to play the game how you would want to, the game will tell you how to play. Why would anyone pay 15$ a month for that?

[Hyan]

Here post a few pages back.

Thanks.

you set a curve of exp. you dont have to decide how many weeks it takes to go through this.

Of course you do. What is this nonsense?

If it takes a week to go through it, the game won't last a month. It has to be taken into consideration.

All I see from you is that instead of choosing to play the game how you would want to, the game will tell you how to play. Why would anyone pay 15$ a month for that?

Every single game in existence does this. Tell me an example of a game that doesn't limit you to do things the way the developers want. Please.

[BlackheartX]

Wait so this is exactly like WOW but it's not WOW I'm so confused plz HALP!!!