Komoto's Official Explanation of Surplus

[Hyan]

Wait so this is exactly like WOW but it's not WOW I'm so confused plz HALP!!!

Can't talk about it, so let's use Aion as an example.

Aion makes you able to do some horizontal progression, but it is quite limited.

You essentially lose your name, quests, reputation, and makes you "an account" instead of a character in the game world- if you want to progress horizontally.

Why should I pay 15 bucks for them a month to decide how I want to build my character? The game essentially forces you to develop your character vertically and punishes me if I want to develop horizontally. What kind of bullshit is that.

But you know what? It's another reason why I just simply won't play Aion. No game is good for everyone, but I won't go there and complain about these things because I'll just play games that cater to me instead.

[omegaB]

Thanks.



Of course you do. What is this nonsense?

If it takes a week to go through it, the game won't last a month. It has to be taken into consideration.

Why do you assume the game is over when you hit the cap, no other game is over when you hit the cap. People hit the cap in FFXI after a few months, they kept playing
I hit the cap in GW in about a week, i kept playing
most people hit the cap in wow, they keep playing, they even delete chrs and reroll the same jobs on dif servers.

they want to make the game not about exp, and yet they defining progress and enjoyment by exp, and even more insanely want to limit what they apparently think is the main enjoyment of the game.

If this game is only about leveling, then why are you stopping people from doing it?

[Brodan]

Lol AION. I remember grinding mobs at lvl 36 for hours because all quest have been exhausted, with millions exp still needed to tnl. I prefer this "gamebreaking" fatigue system instead, tyvm.
PS: not counting in gathering and crafting grind. Oh the horrors

[Hyan]

Why do you assume the game is over when you hit the cap, no other game is over when you hit the cap. People hit the cap in FFXI after a few months, they kept playing
I hit the cap in GW in about a week, i kept playing

Did you play GW as long as you played any other MMO? If not, why would that be?

The game is over when there is nothing to do. SE wants to prolong that from happening for as long as possible (who wouldn't?) because that's how people keep paying them for longer.

This is not rocket science.

Come on Kuro, be nice.

[Elcura]

This is not rocket science.

YES IT IS.

[omegaB]

Did you play GW as long as you played any other MMO? If not, why would that be?

The game is over when there is nothing to do. SE wants to prolong that from happening for as long as possible (who wouldn't?) because that's how people keep paying them for longer.

This is not rocket science.

Come on Kuro, be nice.

i probably played GW 2nd to ffxi and why did i stop? i was satisfied with how much of the game i saw and what i did. I played FFXI a lot, but FFXI didnt limit me from playing monk till 75 and doing missions quests and just about everything i could with that job

if the other jobs and the game are enjoyable people will play them, as they do in every other MMO there is no reason to force people,

since whatever curve they have figured out is the same for getting 2 or 3 jobs to max level it is exactly the same expand time wise. there is no reason for them to tell people how to do it.

If you think your game has 2 or 3 jobs worth of entertainment for this amount of time, there is no reason to tell someone in what fashion they should level those 2 or 3 jobs

[Rothbardian]

Did you play GW as long as you played any other MMO? If not, why would that be?

The game is over when there is nothing to do. SE wants to prolong that from happening for as long as possible (who wouldn't?) because that's how people keep paying them for longer.

This is not rocket science.

Come on Kuro, be nice.

Well SE needs better marketing because they will lose far more subscriptions from making people re-do the same content over and over, and restricting their growth, than if they let them progress through the game at whatever XP curve they designed. I wouldn't assume that people will continue to play the game just because you have artificially restricted the system through a punitive system (XP curves are not punitive), because its going to take you X more hours to hit cap, than without. There is a lot to be said of perception also.

Of course all games are restrictive within the confines of the game code, however, there is a gradient of restriction. Sandbox being the least, and linear being the worst. The fatigue system is on the far end of restriction, which puts a lot of people off. That was the whole point.

[Meresgi]

First off, XIV's system is completely different than the other games you mentioned. At least you could still progress in those games without Bonus XP (Which it was actually a bonus).

It's not really different, how is this hard to grasp? Would it just be better if they took away the surplus and made it so you were required to spend an entire week of grinding 10hrs a day to get 1 single level a week? If they upped the experience needed by 600% or more? The only difference is, now you can go do other things in this game that is made to REQUIRE you to do other things in. They are basically saying "hey, this isnt like that other game you played where you just grinded up a single class to max, then began to do crafting. This game is about leveling up a few classes to gain abilities for your main class and craft along the way to better yourself".

[Hyan]

i probably played GW 2nd to ffxi and why did i stop? i was satisfied with how much of the game i saw and what i did. I played FFXI a lot, but FFXI didnt limit me from playing monk till 75 and doing missions quests and just about everything i could with that job

It did limit you from improving horizontally, something that XIV doesn't currently do.

It's a change, and change is always bad. XIV is not XI, XIV is not vertical progressive game, like XI was (until level cap).

You do not have an argument- you are just in denial about this system. I can't help you any further.

Well SE needs better marketing because they will lose far more subscriptions from making people re-do the same content over and over

Yep, it's all about marketing and how SE presents these systems.

If they had hyped people about "no need to grind" and throw around charts like the GW2 team does the tone would be different now. But now it's more like we know about the downside of the system, but SE aren't making the benefits clear enough.

It's gonna affect their sales, but not because there's something wrong with the system.

[Rothbardian]

It did limit you from improving horizontally, something that XIV doesn't currently do.

It's a change, and change is always bad. XIV is not XI, XIV is not vertical progressive game, like XI was (until level cap).

You do not have an argument- you are just in denial about this system. I can't help you any further.



Yep, it's all about marketing and how SE presents these systems.

If they had hyped people about "no need to grind" and throw around charts like the GW2 team does the tone would be different now. But now it's more like we know about the downside of the system, but SE aren't making the benefits clear enough.

It's gonna affect their sales, but not because there's something wrong with the system.

I wouldn't have a problem with the system if they implemented something with surplus ranks. I had an idea where the ranks were merit points, so you would merit and level at the same time. You could merit present or future abilities/gain abilities through merit points* (*surplus rank points)/etc. At least you wouldn't be throwing the XP into the abyss.

[Hyan]

I wouldn't have a problem with the system if they implemented something with surplus ranks. I had an idea where the ranks were merit points, so you would merit and level at the same time. You could merit present or future abilities/gain abilities through merit points* (*surplus rank points)/etc. At least you wouldn't be throwing the XP into the abyss.

Well, if Anthonystar's theory is right, the ranks have a purpose already- but like Komoto said before, they are thinking about making use of the surplus points somehow. They're talking about "bonus exp", so they better make it that way!

It'll be a bitch to balance, though.

[Meresgi]

I wouldn't have a problem with the system if they implemented something with surplus ranks. I had an idea where the ranks were merit points, so you would merit and level at the same time. You could merit present or future abilities/gain abilities through merit points* (*surplus rank points)/etc. At least you wouldn't be throwing the XP into the abyss.

They said they were looking into what to do with the surplus points. Myself I would like to see item based rewards instead of stat rewards.

[Hyan]

They said they were looking into what to do with the surplus points. Myself I would like to see item based rewards instead of stat rewards.

Make it good enough reward and those who can't hit the surplus are screwed.. It shouldn't be exclusive to the surplus system at the very least.

Make it meaningless and well, that's self-explanatory.

There have been suggestions for various types of incentives, but as encouraging people to play with that in mind defeats the purpose of this threshold system, we will be examining this issue very carefully.

I bet you are, I bet...

[Kaiyoko]

They said they were looking into what to do with the surplus points. Myself I would like to see item based rewards instead of stat rewards.

I think they should move the abilities gained with Class Tokens to gained with surplus and the Class tokens to buy class specific gear.

[Lucavi]

No, they are doing this because A) they want to get ahead and B) they don't want to make the game too grindy vertically (exp per level grindy) to achieve their goal.

How can you prove B? I've never heard them talk about not wanting the game to be grindy. I don't think I've heard any developer ever in any MMO actually speak directly -about- the grind of a MMO. I always figured it was the elephant in the room that nobody wants to address.

I hate to be a dick, but can you provide where SE talks about the actual grind, and not wanting players to have to grind at any level in this game? Even if they say that, there's going to be grinds: HNM for example. You're going to have to kill the same boss to eventually get all the loot that drops from it. That's still a grind.

[omegaB]

It did limit you from improving horizontally, something that XIV doesn't currently do.

It's a change, and change is always bad. XIV is not XI, XIV is not vertical progressive game, like XI was (until level cap).

You do not have an argument- you are just in denial about this system. I can't help you any further.



Yep, it's all about marketing and how SE presents these systems.

If they had hyped people about "no need to grind" and throw around charts like the GW2 team does the tone would be different now. But now it's more like we know about the downside of the system, but SE aren't making the benefits clear enough.

It's gonna affect their sales, but not because there's something wrong with the system.

actually what they are saying by limiting vertical growth is, it is a vertical growth game, the only way we can keep people is by controlling their vertical growth. The main stay of this game is vertical growth, thats what people really want, and since our focus is casuals, we will build that vertical growth around them.

they are also saying this game is mostly about relative growth, and since we are building it around casuals we will limit hardcore to the casuals level of play vertically

basically horizontal growth is what they are willing to throw to hardcore people to shut them up without making the casuals feel bad.


what they probably arent intentionally doing, but in fact are, is setting up a heirarchy based primarily on seniority. A casual who buys this game on the 22 is more valuable than one who buys it on regular release, heck a casual on game day will always be higher level than a hardcore who gets this game a month later, basically until the casual quits. The best players may never meet until the game is totally capped.


Pc gamer levels alt with a ps3er
"hmmm your a cool dude and pretty smart, and you play all the time!

well maybe you ll catch up to our group in 6 months see you then buddy!"

crazy

[Hyan]

How can you prove B? I've never heard them talk about not wanting the game to be grindy. I don't think I've heard any developer ever in any MMO actually speak directly -about- the grind of a MMO. I always figured it was the elephant in the room that nobody wants to address.

I hate to be a dick, but can you provide where SE talks about the actual grind, and not wanting players to have to grind at any level in this game? Even if they say that, there's going to be grinds: HNM for example. You're going to have to kill the same boss to eventually get all the loot that drops from it. That's still a grind.

Well yeah, they suck at marketing.

This is what they say

Firstly, the concept for FINAL FANTASY XIV was to design a system of character progression that offers meaningful advancement for those with limited time to dedicate to playing. We did not want to create a game that forced people to play for hours on end to see their efforts rewarded. To that end, in addition to the Guardian's Aspect and guildleve systems, we introduced a means of apportioning swifter advancement to shorter periods of play.

Which can easily be interpreted as "We did not want to create a game where people had to grind hours on end to see their efforts rewarded (gain a level)".

If I were them I would have hyped the shit out of this ideal like the GW2 team does, but shitty marketing tactics are shitty.

And yeah, of course there will be grind. They'll probably do it like in XI though as far as endgame goes. Casuals get their own events, hardcore get their own events.

The main stay of this game is vertical growth, thats what people really want

People who play this game don't really want that.

Right now there's a lot of "I thought this game was X, but it's Y instead!" like if somebody was waiting for WoW thinking it's an RTS and finding out it's an MMO instead.

Doesn't make it any worse of a game, but it's still not what this particular guy was looking for. Some QQ later, he'll move on anticipating SC2 instead.

[Kaiyoko]

Well yeah, they suck at marketing.

This is what they say



Which can easily be interpreted as "We did not want to create a game where people had to grind hours on end to see their efforts rewarded (gain a level)".

If I were them I would have hyped the shit out of this ideal like the GW2 team does, but shitty marketing tactics are shitty.

And yeah, of course there will be grind. They'll probably do it like in XI though as far as endgame goes. Casuals get their own events, hardcore get their own events.

The problem with their marketing is it's pretty much HI GAIZ THIS IS A FINAL FANTASY GAME, WANNA PLAY? It works in Japan, but it doesn't work outside of Japan.

[Hyan]

The problem with their marketing is it's pretty much HI GAIZ THIS IS A FINAL FANTASY GAME, WANNA PLAY? It works in Japan, but it doesn't work outside of Japan.

The latest trailer was the first thing marketing wise that I was actually impressed about (aside from the bomb at E3 2009).

I think it's sad, but most of the time marketing doesn't make or break the game (esp. game of a well known franchise) so w/e.

If it happens now I can only lol.

Sorry for slight OT.

[omegaB]

Well yeah, they suck at marketing.

This is what they say



Which can easily be interpreted as "We did not want to create a game where people had to grind hours on end to see their efforts rewarded (gain a level)".

If I were them I would have hyped the shit out of this ideal like the GW2 team does, but shitty marketing tactics are shitty.

And yeah, of course there will be grind. They'll probably do it like in XI though as far as endgame goes. Casuals get their own events, hardcore get their own events.



People who play this game don't really want that.

Right now there's a lot of "I thought this game was X, but it's Y instead!" like if somebody was waiting for WoW thinking it's an RTS and finding out it's an MMO instead.

Doesn't make it any worse of a game, but it's still not what this particular guy was looking for. Some QQ later, he'll move on anticipating SC2 instead.

if the main goal is not vertical growth, then hitting the cap will not cause it to lose players.
if the main goal was horizontal they would be punishing casual players who cant level multiple jobs which is supposedly not what they want to do.