True vs. Faux X-hit builds

[Byrthnoth]

HERRO EVARYBAHDY,

I've noticed that people still talk about "True" X-hit builds like it matters. In fact, it does matter, but much less than people assume. Assuming that DA has 2 opportunities to proc on a 2+ hit WS (current theory) while ignoring Zanshin and potential Conserve TP:

DA - 20% ; Hit Rate - 95%
Odds of 4 Extra hits: 3.3%
Odds of 3 Extra hits: 28.1%
Odds of 2 Extra hits: 62.1%
Odds of 1 Extra hit: 6.3%
Odds of 0 Extra hits: 0.2%

So, on something like Raging Rush or King's Justice, you can absolutely rely on one additional hit, and 93.5% of the time you can rely on 2. For jobs with a higher number of hits but lower Double Attack (like Dragoon or Dark Knight), I would assume that the extra hits more than balance out the lower Double Attack and approximately the same is true / they can rely on more.

Regardless, prz stop making "True" X-hits. We aren't fighting lolibri anymore (until the patch). Even WAR with a 3-hit WS can safely rely on at least 1 extra hit.

Love,
Byrthnoth

[FailureMidgard]

Steel Cyclone, Weapon Strip (yovra, sandworms, lamias), other mobs with TP drain (fomor, gnat), flash/higher evasion mobs (puks, Skoll[MMM], other MMM mobs, some Abyssea NMs). I'm sure there's more I'm missing, but I wouldn't say you should just completely ignore it, though yes, a lot of the time it doesn't matter. I also don't think it's that much of a sacrifice.

[Byrthnoth]

It depends. The new 482 delay Gaxes are easier to 6-hit if you don't need to build it from 0TP. It is never going to be a huge difference, but in most meleeburn situations you can count on one added hit, and if you could add more haste by counting on two sometimes it will be worth it.

Belenos or white tath, Rose strap, Rajas, Atlas = 82.5 TP in 5 hits
No Belenos or white tath on WS = 16.2
1 extra hit = 1.2 TP
99.9 TP...
Add attila's to either set and you make it.


If you are willing to assume 2 extra hits:
Rose strap. Rajas, atlas - 16.2 tp per hit
2 extra hits - 2.5tp
99.7 tp, add attila's to the tp set and you make it.
This would also let you use the tern set, which may be your best option if you lack a 6%+ haste belt.

Edit: oh yeah, Brutal is in all above sets.

[FailureMidgard]

It does depend, I agree, and it's not hard to put on extra STP gear if you get wiped or miss the extra hit or something, but it shouldn't be just disregarded in my opinion, due to the fact you still can fight said mobs.

[Mafai]

Interesting topic as I've recently been looking at my gear sets for Bravura war....

Bravura 488 delay
Assuming SAM SUB for "true" setup:
12 STP = 6 hit (16.7 TP per hit)

Always used for total of +6:
Rajas Ring +5
Brutal Earring +1

Multi-hit WS (Raging), is it .5 or 1 TP per extra hit?

TP return from 3-hit WS using 6 STP for WS (rajas + brutal) = 15.9 - 17.9

To get 100 from 82.1(1 hit lands) - 84.1(3 hits land) I need 16.42 - 16.82 TP/hit (10-14 STP) on my TP set.

Basically what I'm getting at is... If my acc is fine either way, which would you go with?

Rose Strap / White Tath / Armada Berk (true 6-hit here)
vs
Pole Grip / Bomb Core / Aurum Curaiss (could swap to Armada for WS and maintain a 6 hit if more then 1 hit lands)

[Byrthnoth]

Additional hits generate:
(1+ stp/100)*(number of additional hits) rounded down to the nearest tenth.

So 2 extra hits with 25 stp gives 2.5 tp.

Bravura spamming KJ or RR would be good to go with just Rose + Rajas + Brutal (100.2 tp with one extra hit, so it is a 6-hit 99% of the time). No need for Tath unless you are using metatron (and thus need a true build). 488 is a much nicer delay than 482. I am jealous.

[FailureMidgard]

Additional hits generate:
(1+ stp/100)*(number of additional hits) rounded down to the nearest tenth.

So 2 extra hits with 25 stp gives 2.5 tp.

Bravura spamming KJ or RR would be good to go with just Rose + Rajas + Brutal (100.2 tp with one extra hit, so it is a 6-hit 99% of the time). No need for Tath unless you are using metatron (and thus need a true build). 488 is a much nicer delay than 482. I am jealous.

I was under the impression every single hit rounded down, is that not correct? So 2 extra hits with 25 stp would give 2.4?

[Byrthnoth]

I am 99% sure it results in 2.5, and I think this is one of the few formulae I use that I personally verified. I can figure out how I did it and try again tonight though.

My current plan is:
482 delay GA, 25STP, use raging rush on something and get a 2-hit return. Swap in one more STP and swing again.
16.2+(2.4 or 2.5)+16.3= 35 TP if it doesn't round for each hit or 34(.9) if it does.

[Mafai]

Thanks for the info about the additional hits, I was never sure about the calculation.

After looking at it a bit more and what I can do without sacrificing any gear (DA Grip pretty much) (6 STP on WS, 21 total with sub), 1.21 per additional hit.

15.9 min return (1hit)
17.11 (1 additional)
18.32 (all 3 hits land)

If I TP with Aurum (I'd lose a bit of stats on Armada, but do they outweigh the DA on the grip?), Rajas, and Brutal I'm getting 16.8 a hit. Depending on the rounding discussed above, would this work for the single hit only landing? (100 - 15.9) = 84.1 / 5 = 16.82

That leaves me debating of TPing in Armada (must use Rose Strap) vs TPing in Aurum (Pole Grip full time, WS in Armada instead of Aurum).

[Byrthnoth]

This is going to sound weird, but I am not sure aurum is particularly useful in this situation.

If Rose+Brutal+Rajas works, then Askar+Pole+Brutal+Rajas works. 3STR for 2% DA is a trade you already make going for Pole over Axe.

1.2+15.9+16.6*5=100.1 TP with 1 extra hit landing and no askar during WS.



As for Armadaberk vs Askar, it will obviously depend what you are fighting. If you need Acc, Rose strap it up an toss on your white box. If you don't, Askar ftw?

[Kilik]

Edit: Im an idiot (misread Byr's post and decided to add to the conversation on edit#2!)

The argument of Armada vs Askar/Aurum for TPing will only matter outside of Abyssea once you get the Atma from Eve. You can sacrifice stp gear because the regain while you TP will make up for it.

Outside of Abyssea, the only mobs I can think of that you would be meleeing nowadays will be event mobs (Dyn, Ein, Salvage, etc) where acc is going to matter less and less as the cap gets raised.

[Soundwave]

I prefer Aurum, my only gripe is having to WS in it when I'm using MT.

[Byrthnoth]

I prefer Aurum, my only gripe is having to WS in it when I'm using MT.

Being stuck at 99.9 is rough. Try using Attila's during TP? It isn't like we have some game-breakingly awesome second earring option yet, and Ares body or one of the new ATk/STR ones would really help your Meta.

Another option is to use Attila's during WS. It would also push you to 100.

[Soundwave]

would TPing in Belenos as well be enough to allow me to MT in Ares again?

[Byrthnoth]

Definitely. Well, as would tping or wsing in 1 more stp. Atilla's is the obvious choice, but belenos is cool too.

[Soundwave]

Can try and get decent augments on atillas too I suppose

[Mafai]

This is what I end up liking (I'm not sure about Askar, but I don't actually have it, so thats why I didn't even consider):

Raging TP
Bravura / Pole Grip / Bomb Core
Turban / Ancient / Brutal / Assault
Aurum / Dusk / Blitz / Rajas
Foragers / Velocious / Haidate / Dusk
28 STP - 16.8 per hit - 84 in 5 hits

Raging WS
Bravura / Pole Grip / Bomb Core
Heca / Gorget / Brutal / Triumph
Armada / Heca+1 / Strigoi / Rajas
Foragers / Warwolf / Ares / Heca+1
21 STP - 15.9 Base + 1.21 per additional
1 hit lands - 15.9 - 84.1 needed in 5 hits
2 hits land - 17.11 - 82.89 needed in 5 hits
3 hits land - 18.32 - 81.68 needed in 5 hits

Meta TP
Bravura / Pole Grip / Bomb Core
Turban / Ancient / Brutal / Assault
Aurum / Dusk / Blitz / Rajas
Foragers / Velocious / Haidate / Dusk
28 STP - 16.8 per hit - 84 in 5 hits

Meta WS
Bravura / Pole Grip / Bomb Core
Varangian Helm / Gorget / Brutal / Attila's
Ares / Alkyoneus / Strigoi / Rajas
Foragers / Warrior's Stone / Ares / Heca+1
22 STP - 16.1 returned - 16.1 + 84 = 100.1

As far as my Meta WS set, a couple things im not completely sure about...
Varangian Helm vs Heca Head
Ares Legs vs Nlegs

PS. Hi Soundwave (if your who I think)

[Soundwave]

sup Mafai, yeah its me^^ How ya doing man? My sets look very similar to urs, except I TP in AMK head, ravager's gorget, and Aesir mantle. I love the flava flav helm for MT, ur gonna miss here and there regardless. I use ares's as well in my leg slot for MT.

I'm still missing a few pieces to really make my WAR shine. I'd love to get some Heafoc Mitts, Timarli Hands, and a Bullwhip Belt. Unfortunately I haven't been able to play as much as Id like to lately.

[mdkuser]

I am 99% sure it results in 2.5, and I think this is one of the few formulae I use that I personally verified. I can figure out how I did it and try again tonight though.

My current plan is:
482 delay GA, 25STP, use raging rush on something and get a 2-hit return. Swap in one more STP and swing again.
16.2+(2.4 or 2.5)+16.3= 35 TP if it doesn't round for each hit or 34(.9) if it does.

I'm 100% certain it is 1.2 TP per hit, so 2.4 total. Also yes "true x-build" results in almost no difference on any job. The only thing that matters is the average number of rounds per WS. I remember mathing this on monk, with footwork and the OAT 2-3 H2H. The average number of rounds between a "true" 7-build and a wrong one is like 0.02 rounds on average with ~3.2 base.

Also if you consider BS like missing a WS or losing TP, you might as well consider getting hit or getting AOE'd ?