Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

[SephYuyX]

Where the hell is my Aspir III.
Fucking SE never does anything for BLM.

[Oulanbator]

When in party, we play like a relatively subpar mnk with less options: we just have melee and ws (well, we still have voke at least).

Aren't you the guy who was saying NIN is supreme and blows shitballs all over MNK a week or two ago?

Well... I used the word "relatively" especially for that kind of remarks.
It didn't mean "raw damage", I was referring to gameplay. Basically, the ninja in a group is limited to tp+ws... and that's it. There is nothing else to do. While the Mnk still have cool things to activate here and there through CS management, boost for WS, smart use of focus/dodge, couple chakras to place, the new perfect counter ...

However, I think Mnk will now beat nin in the dps department for the simple reason they will be able to sub /war most of the time. Between perfect counter and a +66% boost in refresh on healers (and the potential presence of dncs), they shall be able to afford subbing it, and will definitely blow off nins.

So yeah, Nin will be subpar dps too, but the main problem here is the tools the ninja can use. I mentioned nukes earlier, because nukes are actually a problem in the ninja gameplay. I saw remarks about spamming nukes (the "everything will be manaburned") or spamming shurikens... and that's exactly why we don't get upgrades on these: because people want to spam.

What SE needs to do is to manage timers on nukes differently and efficiently: with charges "à la scholar", giving players the freedom to store a couple charges to spam for a really short period (3~4 nukes) or to repeatedly push nukes at regular intervals to compensate for somehow low ws damage.

I think that ideally, with the current San spells dmg, a Ninja should be able to nuke as often as he ws. Not more, not less. If you can add 150~200 dmg nukes to your current Jin dmg, it should up the Dps enough to push Ninja as high as others DDs (with similar gear), without allowing them to be crazy fulltime nukers.

The second issue is the casting on san spells sucks, because it's too slow. I know blms may laugh at this cause 2.5s can look like a quite fast casting spell, but related to tp gain, it's slow casting. You may get a little more direct damage from casting, but the tp gain from meleing will lead to more ws which will lead to more damage. An ability "à la drk casting" could partially fix this though.

On top of that, they give us skillchain damage and magic burst damage... so it definitely suits the concept: nuke when you ws. The problem is they forgot the basic: spells that can be cast without being a huge penalty to your dps and tp gain.


Which leads us to the main issue with this new update: ichi spells.
Don't tell me we'll get cool buffs cause we won't. We've never got a buff spell outside of utsusemi, all we get are debuffs and nukes. Giving us cool buffs now would be like giving blm cures and a good ws turning it in another job.
We're clearly getting a couple debuffs in the line of aisha:ichi. They will take forever to cast, and won't last long so we'll have to cast them often, which will reduce our time meleing, which will make these not practical in party situations.
They may have their highly situational uses just like Aisha. I still have 90 out of the 99 aisha tools I bought, and they are in satchel. We don't need two other spells like this.

Ideally, if SE wanted to add new debuffs, they should add 3 in 1 debuffs. Like slow + blind + atk down (kurayami + hojo + aisha) would actually make the spell worth being cast even if ichi, because, it goes along the lines of "use your spells without being heavily penalized on your dps"
That kind of ichi spell would also create a huge drawback when being resisted, giving the individual spells room for uses. It would also create choices, hence ability management, involving the famous "player skill", because players would have to choose between redebuffing partially with the "old" spells but being blocked to recast the all-in-one, or waiting for recasts.


So, to answer you directly, Ninja still had the power to compete efficiently before this update, but this update will kill this potential. Mostly through extremely high refresh allowing the healers to make anything survive, allowing melee players to totally drop their defenses for more offenses. /nin is dead (see thf DW), people will fulltime hasso... and ninja doesn't have anything to improve through the refresh revolution.

So yeah, fuck this update.

[Karbuncle]

If you don't have it most of the time, your members are just lazy. We generally have more dancers available than necessary, and two more people are in the process of leveling it now. Oh, and you have twice as many active members.

Yes, since "Every party at every fight" = "Most of the time".

You won't Always have a DNC, in those situations, rare or not, the extra enspell damage would be beneficial is what i got when i read his post.

[StevenW]

Seems like SE is giving love to "off jobs". I really like the new whm trait and boost mnd ideas. I still want Holy II though dammit! (Or Mega Holy lol)

[Byrthnoth]

I distilled this for you:

Playing NIN is boring, and MNK will be better than NIN after the update because now they can sub WAR more often.

It's a shame people want to spam the highest damage/time option and they should feel bad because they're naughty. NIN should be a nuker in moderation. A gentleman nuker, if you will. Make nukes unspammable using a charge system like Scholar or Corsair to force this. However, spells (including San) are too slow-casting relative to TP gain.

Which leads us to the main issue with this new update: ichi spells:
We aren't getting another buff Ninjutsu. They will be on the Aisha Ichi line, which is to say crap. I prefer a Bad Breath: Ichi, if they are going to give us Ichi.

NIN is still good, but after the update it will be relatively worse and not even a useful sub anymore because everyone has Dual Wield now (except Warriors).

So yeah, fuck this update.

So, I'm betting you don't play with Dancers very often. The drawbacks of increased Refresh that you're complaining about are already not an issue, because the best healer in the game is Dancer and they don't care about Refresh.

Apart from that, I agree in general but disagree with the finality of your conclusion. I think NIN really is 10-15% DW and a better WS from being a decent DD. Keep in mind that SE may introduce crazy amounts of gear Haste in the future that allow us to cap in fewer slots and make DW pants/belt viable.

[Wanna_Spoon]

Refresh II only increases the spells duration.

[Priran]

Refresh II only increases the spells duration.

I'd laugh but I doubt it.

[Jeryhn]

I could be wrong but last time i checked, the enspells or samba's did not stack with SE.

Souleater doesn't proc as an additional effect. It stacks with additional effects that proc on weapon strikes.

Blood Weapon is what doesn't stack with Sambas or Enspells.

[Scritch]

Refresh II only increases the spells duration.

Better yet, it'll be 4 mp/tic but it'll last half as long.

[Shenrien]

Better yet, it'll be 4 mp/tic but it'll last half as long.

while costing 4 times the amount of refresh.

[Malacite]

I thought High Jump was 50% enmity shaved off? Oh well.

Honestly it's looking more and more like SE is just not giving a shit about power creep anymore. Despite a good number of loltastic traits (WTF BRD Fencer and PUP Crit def) there is a lot of over powering shit in this update.
SCH messing with enmity directly, RDM & BRD becoming absolute MP whores, and COR finally adding to the haste craze and quite possibly even reviving arrowburns if that Snapshot Roll is potent enough.

The way Earthen Armor is worded, it sounds like there will be a damage threshold. As in, only attacks that do X or more amount of damage will be impacted, but they will be greatly reduced in power. I mean shit, it's not enough that Alexander can cockblock AV (woot) but now this too? Shit, toss out Earthen Armor then quickly whip out Alexander and it's GG bitch.


Hopefully part 2 will be just as epic (still waiting on armor trials details! Go go Osode with +20 stats lol? 10 Haste Haidate o. O?!) but there's a few things I really wanna just point out. What the crap is with MNK & NIN getting SC bonus? NIN is just outright stupid, but at least MNK is somewhat feasible. However, it would have been a lot better on WAR DRK or DRG, particularly since they can all use Sekkanoki now. SC Bonus with Raging Rush > Raging Rush off Sekka would be cool.

Shit even THF would have been a better candidate with SA/TA WS closing a chain for an extra spike of SC damage. And Feather Step strikes me as a little retarded. I was really hoping DNC would get a slow effect step... I'm just skeptic about it because Rogue's Roll just wasn't all that effective even with a THF present unless you landed an XI.

[Juxtaposition]

i stoped basicly subbing NIN for DNC since they got natural dualwield. I am subbing war now, and the increase in dmg is noticable, being able to offhand a OaT dagger for TP gain while still gaining benefits form /war is a huge boost. Newsflash: I am doing fine and dont die in PTs and I am sure thfs that know what they are doing would do fine too. The only time I /NIN is when I am going to duo or trio some Abyssea NMs as an EVA tank. Thats it. Believe it or not, some jobs sub NIN because they actually need the offhand weapon!

If you could /WAR instead of /NIN, then you would get a damage from subbing WAR and you should have been doing so from the start. Counter newsflash: THF much fewer ways of preventing death than a DNC does, but that's not even the point. You sub NIN for shadows aka the ability to not die. If you can reasonably not die against something or cause excess strain on your healer, then you sub notNIN for more damage. No matter your job, I am positive that there is a better subjob for damage dealing than DW. The only possible scenario is you want your TH mule to have a weapon better than Thief's Knife.

[Yugl]

They keep disappointing me with DRG updates. Spirit Link TP isn't that great since it's 50% Wyvern TP and that really amounts to nothing if you're WSing often enough. Spirit Jump is garbage. Soul Jump doesn't look promising. They really need to just put these jumps on different timers since they don't utilize jump merits.

[Oulanbator]

Playing NIN is boring, and MNK will be better than NIN after the update because now they can sub WAR more often.

It's a shame people want to spam the highest damage/time option and they should feel bad because they're naughty. NIN should be a nuker in moderation. A gentleman nuker, if you will. Make nukes unspammable using a charge system like Scholar or Corsair to force this. However, spells (including San) are too slow-casting relative to TP gain.

Which leads us to the main issue with this new update: ichi spells:
We aren't getting another buff Ninjutsu. They will be on the Aisha Ichi line, which is to say crap. I prefer a Bad Breath: Ichi, if they are going to give us Ichi.

NIN is still good, but after the update it will be relatively worse and not even a useful sub anymore because everyone has Dual Wield now (except Warriors).

I like what you did there. :D
The gentleman nuker part is funny. However you miss the point: the highest damage/time option should be a mix of everything the job have to offer, because the ultimate goal of this job is to deal damage (and to some point hold hate through damage). Being able to manage the abilities should make the difference between good and crappy players.
Spamming one option, be it nukes, melee, ranged attacks... it just makes the job boring. Make two spam buttons and have fun ? That doesn't work for me.

Years ago, Ninja used to be more complicated than other jobs, be it in DD stance, or in HNM tank stance, because the players had to manage more gear swaps, had to time utsu, had to manage enmity ressources on HNMs...
It made the difference between good and terrible Ninjas.

So, I'm betting you don't play with Dancers very often. The drawbacks of increased Refresh that you're complaining about are already not an issue, because the best healer in the game is Dancer and they don't care about Refresh.
Apart from that, I agree in general but disagree with the finality of your conclusion. I think NIN really is 10-15% DW and a better WS from being a decent DD. Keep in mind that SE may introduce crazy amounts of gear Haste in the future that allow us to cap in fewer slots and make DW pants/belt viable.

Well, to be honest at the moment I don't play much cause I'm limited by time, and haven't had much dancers to play with. I've been tempted to move from Nin to Dnc, because I think Dnc have more potential as a group teammate and a more interesting, challenging and skill requiring gameplay as things are now. Though, I'm not sure I'd try to play Dnc as a healer. I'd try to play it as a tank and would customize every single bit of it for a single purpose:grabbing as much hate as humanly possible and surviving it.

However, I won't change job to do this because I really don't have time to start again from scratch. I don't want to level another job that is lv40, I don't want to go back to dynamis and limbus to get more fucking AFs, I don't want to start again at zero on fucking magian trials. I don't want to see all the gear I worked hard for years being trashed to play another job as well.
Since my life changed, I had to drop 4 of my 6 jobs, I kept the two I really liked. I'm pissed to see SE sending one of these (my favourite on top of that) to the trash can while they could really easily make it a fun job if they had half a brain.

And I disagree. More DW won't make ninja more fun. Remove all the steps/waltzes and sambas and JAs from dancer, add 40% DW, and tell me eyes in the eyes it is more fun. I won't believe such bullshit.
That's what happened to Nin however: our nukes were taken away by not upgrading (or upgrading stupidly), our debuffs were taken away as well (ichi yay + stronger debuffs to other classes) and they add new shitty debuffs that can only not work.
Our good tank subjob (/rdm - the one that really allowed nukes to have use) have been trashed in the last update, and now the refresh boost will still send utsusemi to the graveyard.

All that is left is dual-wield. So yeah, I'm really pissed to see I'll have to quit because SE doesn't want to upgrade my job and make it fun to play.

[Thiefami]

All that is left is dual-wield. So yeah, I'm really pissed to see I'll have to quit because SE doesn't want to upgrade my job and make it fun to play.

best news to come out of this update.

You make your job fun.

[StevenW]

I didn't even see the snapshot roll, it will really make COR soloing easier, especially with high delay guns.

[Spider-Dan]

Years ago, Ninja used to be more complicated than other jobs, be it in DD stance, or in HNM tank stance, because the players had to manage more gear swaps, had to time utsu, had to manage enmity ressources on HNMs...

[...]

I'm pissed to see SE sending one of these (my favourite on top of that) to the trash can while they could really easily make it a fun job if they had half a brain.

[...]

More DW won't make ninja more fun. Remove all the steps/waltzes and sambas and JAs from dancer, add 40% DW, and tell me eyes in the eyes it is more fun. I won't believe such bullshit.

[...]

So yeah, I'm really pissed to see I'll have to quit because SE doesn't want to upgrade my job and make it fun to play.

We've literally arrived at the point where people are complaining that their jobs aren't fun enough. Obviously your tastes have changed; it's not like NIN has received some huge, drastic nerf that fundamentally alters NIN's core gameplay. No, you just want something different to do on the same job; god forbid you actually play a different job instead.

I think the real purpose of 99 cap is just to show how much the playerbase will complain, no matter what they are given. You likely have a 10% delay reduction trait coming in the next update and you're complaining about fun?

[Alkar]

Honestly I wouldn't expect much out of Part II as they've pretty much said it'll be about current JAs and fixes to those instead of new things.
Remember when Part II was all about circle abilities?

[Hyan]

Honestly I wouldn't expect much out of Part II as they've pretty much said it'll be about current JAs and fixes to those instead of new things.
Remember when Part II was all about circle abilities?

Remember when we got maybe 1-2 new JA's and spells in the whole update?

Just saying

[Alkar]

Remember when we got maybe 1-2 new JA's and spells in the whole update?

Just saying

"In addition to the above, performance-enhancing tweaks are also in the pipes for numerous existing job abilities. The exciting details will be announced in the very near future, so keep watching this space!"

Sounds like another circle abilities teaser to me, except it may have some interesting fixes. Obviously it won't stop the QQs but it's pretty clear.