Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

[Malacite]

I'm starting to wonder if WHM and/or RDM will see a Blink II or Stoneskin II and just how crazy that would be >.>

Odds are those too would get cock blocked by Accession though :/

[Nightfyre]

Probably late to the party on this, but

Soul Jump (DRG Lv.85 Effect Duration: 3 min.)
Delivers a high jumping attack on a targeted enemy which suppresses enmity. Effect enhanced when wyvern is present.
*The recast timer for Soul Jump is shared with High Jump.

Might not be as bad as I originally took it to be? Would still need a pretty strong suppression effect to be worth using over High Jump but I dunno, maybe it'll be useful.

[Spider-Dan]

It didn't changed directly, though every single other job in this game have changed. And as I explained, while people were getting new tools, ninja basically lost the tools he had.

My favorite part was when SE took away NIN's ability to switch from an tanking/evasion stance (that requires you to stand in front) to a damage dealing/nuking stance (that requires you to stand in the back). That definitely removed a lot of the complexity of the job.

Oh, wait, did I say took away? Sorry, I meant the opposite of that.

Still, I congratulate you. Any person who can compare his job to MNK and claim that his job has less complexity, with a straight face, has a set of balls on him.

[Scritch]

Probably late to the party on this, but


Might not be as bad as I originally took it to be? Would still need a pretty strong suppression effect to be worth using over High Jump but I dunno, maybe it'll be useful.

Presumably "Suppresses enmity" will be the same as Spirit Jump, it just means you won't gain any enmity from the damage the jump does. What remains to be seen is if the "high jumping attack" means it'll shed enmity just like High Jump (since High Jump's description says nothing about enmity, just a 'high jumping attack', its possible this one will have the enmity shedding too). And the "effect enhanced when wyvern is present." Assuming its the same as Spirit Jump's enhancement, just extra TP, it might be useful. Spirit Jump's extra TP isn't that great since it won't save you a hit under most circumstances, but Spirit + Soul might.

[Nightfyre]

Ok, so you've covered the first two seconds... what's it doing for the other 2:58?

[Yugl]

The bold says "Effect duration". I assume this means enmity will be suppressed over time.

Edit: Gtfo and respond to PMs night!

[Xanthe]

At first I thought Nightfyre might be onto something, but it is very likely a typo. The Japanese and French topic states Use Interval: 3 minutes rather than Effect Duration. The German and English topics are the only ones to make mention of duration.

[Nightfyre]

The bold says "Effect duration". I assume this means enmity will be suppressed over time.

Edit: Gtfo and respond to PMs night!

Just saw it, response in your inbox :3

At first I thought Nightfyre might be onto something, but it is very likely a typo. The Japanese and French topic states Use Interval: 3 minutes rather than Effect Duration. The German and English topics are the only ones to make mention of duration.

Bah... Back to (likely) being disappointed with Soul Jump then.

[Oulanbator]

My favorite part was when SE took away NIN's ability to switch from an tanking/evasion stance (that requires you to stand in front) to a damage dealing/nuking stance (that requires you to stand in the back). That definitely removed a lot of the complexity of the job.
Oh, wait, did I say took away? Sorry, I meant the opposite of that.

O yeah, these stances are so great they changed the job, at least as much if not more than others stances such as Hasso/Seigan, light/dark arts, afflatus solace/misery or even tiny spells like reprisal, dread spikes, esuna or JAs changes like sentinel, collaborator, composure, pianissimo etc..
/irony off

There are good adjustments that makes the jobs better, richer and more fun.
There are shitty adjustments that make no point at all that no one uses. Yonin/Innin are part of the useless ones.
The way it looks like since SE finally decided to upgrade ninja, is they try to add all the shittiest things they could ever think about on this single job to see how long people can bear it before quitting the game.

Still, I congratulate you. Any person who can compare his job to MNK and claim that his job has less complexity, with a straight face, has a set of balls on him.

You don't have to congratulate me: it's true.
SE made a complex job revolving around tanking, nuking, debuffing and dding into a shitty job that only melee and ws. I don't think anything can be more simple. They even dared to push the insult to the point of adding "stances" that split the main core abilities of the job in two, while weakening the natural abilities they had before stances.

Is there a thing Sam could do before hasso/seigan they became unable to do by using a stance ? Is there a thing Whm could to before afflatus solace/misery they became unable to do after using the stances ?

So stop trying to be smart when you're obviously trolling. Thanks.

[Alkar]

I think the main issue here is that Yonin/Innin share the same recast unlike every other stance in the game, making you pick which you want instead of switching depending on the situation. If they changed them to 1 min recast each like Arts I could see a difference.
Imagine if Hasso and Seigan shared the same recast... suddenly Seigan wouldn't be that useful anymore unless you stay in it all the time.
Same with Presto sharing recast with Steps making it absolutely useless and actually punishing you for using it.
I guess we'll have to wait for Part II to see which JA is getting fixed but I suppose these are likely.

[Narol]

Any person who can compare his job to MNK and claim that his job has less complexity, with a straight face, has a set of balls on him.

MNK can get tricky what with having JAs and weapon skills and that stuff's hard you guys. :\

[urat]

Same with Presto sharing recast with Steps making it absolutely useless and actually punishing you for using it.
I guess we'll have to wait for Part II to see which JA is getting fixed but I suppose these are likely.

Learn2prep

Presto is mostly meant to be used 10 secs or so before the fight, thus giving you an extra finish for free.

There sure is a lot of hating on dancer in this thread >_>;

[Snick]

There sure is a lot of hating on dancer in this thread >_>;

Only from people who think Endark is good.

[Alkar]

Learn2prep

Presto is mostly meant to be used 10 secs or so before the fight, thus giving you an extra finish for free.

There sure is a lot of hating on dancer in this thread >_>;

Hmm no.. it actually makes you lose a finishing move. By stepping twice I get 4, Presto gives 3. How am I hating on DNC when I'm 80 myself?
Presto is useless simply because it shares the recast with steps. If it didn't OR it'd power up Steps in a different way then it would be a completely different story. Prepping has nothing to do with it especially considering that the first step is actually the most powerful, while the others are adding on top of it.
The purpose of Presto (as the name implies as it means "Quick") was to make steps quicker to cap and it doesn't do that at all.

[Spider-Dan]

O yeah, these stances are so great they changed the job, at least as much if not more than others stances such as Hasso/Seigan, light/dark arts, afflatus solace/misery or even tiny spells like reprisal, dread spikes, esuna or JAs changes like sentinel, collaborator, composure, pianissimo etc..

What do other jobs' changes have to do with you?

You claim that your job has been made "less fun". You have ALL THE SAME THINGS you had when you signed up to it (actually, a lot more, but why quibble?). So what are you complaining about?

The way it looks like since SE finally decided to upgrade ninja, is they try to add all the shittiest things they could ever think about on this single job to see how long people can bear it before quitting the game.

Crit rate+30% (THIRTY F*CKING PERCENT)
MAB+30

Yes, these obviously greatly reduce NIN's ability to DD and nuke. Or whatever the hell it is you are complaining about.

SE made a complex job revolving around tanking, nuking, debuffing and dding into a shitty job that only melee and ws.

And here's the best part:

- They nerfed NIN's tanking by... increasing NIN's evasion and enmity.
- They nerfed NIN's nuking by... giving it MAB+30.
- They nerfed NIN's DDing by... giving it crit rate+30%.

So whereas before (in some undefined time period that we shouldn't worry too much about determining), NIN could nuke and debuff and DD and tank, now, due to changes that were made to NINJA (because that's what you are complaining about!), it is empirically worse at all of those things. According to you.

Stick to your "I don't find NIN to be fun anymore" argument. When you start trying to reach for actual, quantifiable comparisons, your baseless whining is rather transparently exposed.

[Scritch]

Hmm no.. it actually makes you lose a finishing move. By stepping twice I get 4, Presto gives 3. How am I hating on DNC when I'm 80 myself?
Presto is useless simply because it shares the recast with steps. If it didn't OR it'd power up Steps in a different way then it would be a completely different story. Prepping has nothing to do with it especially considering that the first step is actually the most powerful, while the others are adding on top of it.
The purpose of Presto (as the name implies as it means "Quick") was to make steps quicker to cap and it doesn't do that at all.

You're missing his point, and attributing a purpose to Presto that doesn't make sense. Presto is an ability with limited, but not zero, uses. Presto has one purpose, and it fulfills that purpose well. Your puller is gone, its takes them 10-15 seconds to get back to you. You use Presto as soon as he goes. By the time he's back, the timer is recharged. You use a Step. You gain 3 Finishing Moves. 3 > 2. Also Daze Lv.2 instead of 1, but whatever to that. It also helps you get TP up faster when you're starting battle from 0 TP (for people who haven't merited No Foot Rise yet), since Presto doesn't cost any TP to perform. The point urat was making is that Presto is used to prep you to get 3 moves instead of 2 when the next mob gets to you. And your puller won't always take ~15 seconds to pull, often it'll already be at you. But in that situation, it is better to use Presto than to not use it.

You're right that it completely fails to make steps quicker to cap. You're not right that that was its purpose. Presto is not a very useful ability. But it does have a use.

[stewie]

tanking,

NIN was never the "best" tank.

nuking,

lol

debuffing

Useful for soloing, that's about it.

and dding

NIN was never an amazing DD after tp floor was removed.

It's a fun job but I don't think you realize that it was never amazing at anything, it was always a bottom-of-the-barrel type job, and it still is, that shouldn't take away the fun of it.

[Thiefami]

You're right that it completely fails to make steps quicker to cap. You're not right that that was its purpose. Presto is not a very useful ability. But it does have a use.

lol...It is meant to augment steps. Either its useful (has a use) or not very useful (does not have a use).

Presto makes absolutely no sense in the way it currently functions. They should set the step timer to half the time of a step, or completely place it on an independent timer.

[Scritch]

It does have a use. I have clearly illustrated a situation where it is better to Presto > Step than it is to Step > Step. It is not highly useful, because that situation is fairly rare. I didn't realize it was so impossible to tell the difference between a situational ability, and an ability that is completely useless (ie pre-Magian Footwork). There are degrees of usefulness, from Very to No Use. Presto is on the low end. The very low end. But it is not at "No Use."

Yes, Presto could be better. Yes, it probably should be better. I would welcome any change that made it better. But it is not completely devoid of use.

[Oulanbator]

The answer is simple and obvious.

Ninja was an all-in-one pack of dding-tanking-nuking-evading. It wasn't the best at all this, but it was able to do all this reliably, and it was this mix that made it good.

The Yonin/Innin "stances" split all this in two categories, by getting something you loose something else. Let's make a parallel with Hasso. It's like if Hasso allowed the Sam to melee faster, but prevented him from doing wses (well wses might be a bit too much, let's say melee faster but loose store tp traits): it would definitely suck.
However, you can be under Hasso or Seigan and keep all the basic functions of the sam still working. That's the concept of stances: choose between two bonuses the one that suits the situation better, but don't get everything cause that would be OP.

The Yonin/Innin "stances" however includes huge drawbacks (while others don't). For example, if I pop Innin I get a malus to enmity... WTF! Why?
I could deal with evasion down but enmity, no way. Not to mention if you have hate, the bonus from the stance is totally cancelled because they added stupid positioning bullshit. Not 2s positioning like SA/TA or overwhelm. You talk as if Nin was getting a fulltime Acc or Enm or Mab bonus, but it's definitely not the case.

I could accept such nonsense if these stances were really awesome and made us "best" or close to top at something. Huge boosts would justify huge drawbacks. But none of these stances allows Nin to take any of the spots they are supposed to offer reliably.

As things are now, Yonin is basically a panic button for eva boost (though gear-swap happens to be more efficient), and Innin is an ability no player can seriously afford to use on a regular basis. Stances were probably not the answer to fix Ninja and allow it to progress along all other jobs.


Yes, other's jobs changes and progression have everything to do with me since this is a team game. The concept in a MMO is to play with others and to have fun with others. When others progress and you don't, fun just turns into bitterness because you're not useful any more, so you're not wanted either.
How can you have fun if you're the burden others take in the group out of pity ? (Or generally refuse to team with)
What kind of amusement is there in this ?

That's why classes in MMOs are usually balanced and adjusted: to make sure every player, every client of the society have access to the amusement they pay for every month. In times where every job progress, through new levels and abilities, it's really sad to see SE decided one job should stand still forever.