Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

[Alkar]

It does have a use. I have clearly illustrated a situation where it is better to Presto > Step than it is to Step > Step. It is not highly useful, because that situation is fairly rare. I didn't realize it was so impossible to tell the difference between a situational ability, and an ability that is completely useless (ie pre-Magian Footwork).

Yes, Presto could be better. Yes, it probably should be better. I would welcome any change that made it better. But it is not completely devoid of use.

Again no. Let's use another ability as an example ok?
Pianissimo. The meaning differs depending on what you're talking about but in this context (of singing/playing an instrument) it refers to lowering your tone so that less people can hear you. As you can see the name perfectly matches the use as Pianissimo restricts the AoE to single target.
Now... Presto means quick. This means that it's supposed to make something quicker but here's the thing: it doesn't.
Stepping twice requires the exact same time as using Presto>Step as they share timers but the result at the end is 3 FM with Presto, 4 with only Steps.
You're using 10 TP to get three FM, 20 to get 4. The difference in TP return using Reverse Flourish is 13 TP (33 TP with 3 FM, 46 with 4) which basically means that in the same amount of time you're getting at the SAME result (step lvl 2) while losing 3 TP (again it's not a great loss but still a loss).
What exactly is this ability supposed to accomplish other than taking up place in my already long JA list? As it is Presto is useless, barring the extremely situational use you're talking about.
Giving Presto its own recast would make the name quite fitting as you're actually getting 3 FM instead of 2 in the same time frame AND capping Steps in less time.
I honestly think that an ability named Presto is actually supposed to cap Steps quicker, not situationally allow me to get 2% extra def/eva/m. eva down on 1 step while waiting for the puller. Not to mention the ability lasts 30 seconds.
I could've used another example but, considering both Pianissimo and Presto are in italian and the jobs actually have a link, I thought BRD was more fitting.
DNC does not need anything new right now but if you bother to give me an ability, actually make it useful.

[Scritch]

Again no. Let's use another ability as an example ok?
Pianissimo. The meaning differs depending on what you're talking about but in this context (of singing/playing an instrument) it refers to lowering your tone so that less people can hear you. As you can see the name perfectly matches the use as Pianissimo restricts the AoE to single target..

Pianissimo also maxes the range at 20' no matter instrument or skill, which makes zero sense for "singing softly." I don't get it, its just a name. I don't think an ability needs to be completely represented by the name given to it. Regardless we pretty much agree that Presto has limited use. The only difference is I believe that its limited uses prevents it from being accurately described as "useless".

I'd hate it if it had a different recast too. If it was on a second 15 second timer, I'd just want it as a Job Trait. I'd love to see Presto say, inflict a Lv.3 daze instead of Lv.2 (that way you're sacrificing 1 Finishing Moves in order to get an additional daze level), but I'm happy with it now. I use it a lot when doing Magian trials. Sometimes the next mob I have to pull is quite a bit away from my current position, and Presto finds a use there.

[Alkar]

Pianissimo also maxes the range at 20' no matter instrument or skill, which makes zero sense for "singing softly." I don't get it, its just a name. I don't think an ability needs to be completely represented by the name given to it. Regardless we pretty much agree that Presto has limited use. The only difference is I believe that its limited uses prevents it from being accurately described as "useless".

I'd hate it if it had a different recast too. If it was on a second 15 second timer, I'd just want it as a Job Trait. I'd love to see Presto say, inflict a Lv.3 daze instead of Lv.2 (that way you're sacrificing 1 Finishing Moves in order to get an additional daze level), but I'm happy with it now. I use it a lot when doing Magian trials. Sometimes the next mob I have to pull is quite a bit away from my current position, and Presto finds a use there.

No, it's not just a name. "Tenuto" means kept and guess what? The ability allows you to KEEP the buffs you cast on yourself.
You can't argue that naming an ability "Quick" has nothing to do with the effect. That's like saying that if they named "Slow" as "Haste" you'd be perfectly fine with it.
If the intentional use was to use Presto before battle to only augment the first Step, the duration wouldn't be 30 seconds.

[Yugl]

No, it's not just a name. "Tenuto" means kept and guess what? The ability allows you to KEEP the buffs you cast on yourself.
You can't argue that naming an ability "Quick" has nothing to do with the effect. That's like saying that if they named "Slow" as "Haste" you'd be perfectly fine with it.
If the intentional use was to use Presto before battle to only augment the first Step, the duration wouldn't be 30 seconds.

High Jump.

[Nightfyre]

Super Jump doesn't give me a cape, I want my money back.

[Yugl]

I get a cape.

[Scritch]

No, it's not just a name. "Tenuto" means kept and guess what? The ability allows you to KEEP the buffs you cast on yourself.
You can't argue that naming an ability "Quick" has nothing to do with the effect. That's like saying that if they named "Slow" as "Haste" you'd be perfectly fine with it.
If the intentional use was to use Presto before battle to only augment the first Step, the duration wouldn't be 30 seconds.

Please explain how Fealty (an oath of loyalty) should protect against status ailments? Or how Chivalry relates to restoring MP by giving up TP? Killer effects lead to intimation when it sounds like they should increase damage. "Measure of Truth" does not make me think "doubles potency and halves duration of helices".

A lot of jobs have ability names that do nothing more than provide flavor. Scholar gets big words and Latin roots. Paladin gets knightly words. Samurai and Ninja get Japanese words. Bard gets music terms. Sometimes these sync up very well (I love Pianissimo and Tenuto, they're perfect names). Sometimes they do not (I always get Fealty and Chivalry confused because the names and effects do not line up).

I really just do not see the big deal about its name.

[Deven]

That's why classes in MMOs are usually balanced and adjusted: to make sure every player, every client of the society have access to the amusement they pay for every month. In times where every job progress, through new levels and abilities, it's really sad to see SE decided one job should stand still forever.

Try telling this to a PLD a couple years ago when nobody would invite them over a NIN for exp.

And as for all the people saying that the Boost-VIT and Boost-MND spells for WHM will be AOE, why would they be? because bar(ra) spells are aoe while the RDM versions are self-target only? a particular bar spell is a benefit for the whole pt. Fighting Jorm? barblizzara, go! but why would an entire pt want to buff the same attribute unless they are all the same job? sure Boost-INT if in a BLM pt, but why have a whm in a blm pt? My guess is that the Boost versions are single-target pt member, while the gain versions are self-cast. boost-vit for the pld, boost-int for the BLM, boost-str for the SAM, etc. etc etc.

[urat]

Hey guys lets do some math before you all start hating on presto.

Reverse Flourish takes 30 secs to use.

You have mainly 2 choices, 2 steps -> reverse flourish for 63 tp, and Im saying 63 tp cause if you don't have RF fully capped and your a level 80 dancer, go get a fucking abyssea party and cap that shit right now. Otherwise, any dancer who hasn't even taken the time to cap RF has no grounds at all to act like they know what they're talking about. Seriously.

Now the beautiful thing about RF merits is they add a static amount of tp no matter how many finishes you have. So in fact if you did 5 reverse flourishes with 1 finish each, youd get 12+15 = 27 tp a pop, for a total of 135 tp from 5 finishes, as opposed to 1 reverse flourish with 5 finishes for only 75 tp.

Thats just an illustration though of how it works. Which leads me to point 1. ALWAYS use reverse flourish ASAP no matter how many finishes you have as long as your tp <250%ish. With reverse flourish merits, the LESS finishes you have, the HIGHER tp return you end up with.

But I digress, lets take a look at the two possible outcomes.

Step -> Step -> Reverse Flourish, 4 finishes, costs 20 tp, returns 63 tp, or

Presto -> Step -> Reverse Flourish, 3 finishes, costs 10 tp, returns 51 tp.

In other words, performing 2 steps and RFing instead of Presto then Stepping only gives you a 2 tp lead. Its not that shitty of a move BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE

Now lets take Acc into account, shall we?

I'll even give you 95% acc for the highest possible lead, at 95% acc you only have have a 90.25% chance at successfully landing 2/2 of the steps. And you should probably have your step acc capped assuming you have AF hands and relic feet. If you don't, once again wtf?

Presto -> Step only requires 1 hit to land, thus its a 95% chance of landing. Thus, 0.9025 * 43 (S-S-RF tp return) = average of 38.8 tp

0.95 * 41 = 38.95 average tp return.

Aka

Presto doesn't suck, in fact its a hairsbreadth better.

Also, if you can figure out a way to perform a step on the monster when there isn't one at camp, Presto still has the use of being able to prep it 10 secs before battle giving you a free finish.



tl;dr math math math presto = steps math math math presto > steps

[Salmijr]

Idk, I find it useful to open all our AVs with a Presto'd Box step. Maybe thats just me. Instant lvl 2 x3 dnc and you have lvl 5 def down..

[jimbobsonofgod]

I hate siding with Urat but Really cant complain about a free 10 TP. ( not that i am agreeing or disagreeing with his math , i just don't think presto is really as shitty as people are making it out to be. Could be worse, we could be ninjas).

[Spider-Dan]

The answer is simple and obvious.

Ninja was an all-in-one pack of dding-tanking-nuking-evading. It wasn't the best at all this, but it was able to do all this reliably, and it was this mix that made it good.

And this same mix still exists, and will likely be receiving a 10% reduction in DW delay in the upcoming update. But let's stay on subject:

The Yonin/Innin "stances" split all this in two categories, by getting something you loose something else.

Yes. So in other words, you don't get to magically become better at everything; you exchange extra DD/nuking ability for reduced tanking ability, or vice versa. This is what is known as a tradeoff, which is what reasonable people expect when asking for a multipurpose class to receive a buff.

Let's make a parallel with Hasso. It's like if Hasso allowed the Sam to melee faster, but prevented him from doing wses (well wses might be a bit too much, let's say melee faster but loose store tp traits): it would definitely suck.

I have a better parallel: it would be like if Hasso made it so that Third Eye's duration no longer matched its recast, like it did before the Hasso/Seigan update.

In reality, my parallel isn't harsh enough; 3E's duration is nerfed even when you aren't using Hasso.

The Yonin/Innin "stances" however includes huge drawbacks (while others don't). For example, if I pop Innin I get a malus to enmity... WTF! Why?

ITT: -enmity to a player trying to deal damage is a "huge drawback"! Who knew?

I could deal with evasion down but enmity, no way. Not to mention if you have hate, the bonus from the stance is totally cancelled because they added stupid positioning bullshit.

Let me see if I can get this straight:

- -enmity is a totally unacceptable "handicap" and completely breaks Innin
- Innin is also stupid because it doesn't work if you get hate, because you have to stand in the back

Hmmm, I wonder what they could possibly have added to Innin so that you would be less likely to pull hate during it?

Comedy gold.

I could accept such nonsense if these stances were really awesome and made us "best" or close to top at something. Huge boosts would justify huge drawbacks.

Innin's crit boost is better than XI Rogue's Roll (with THF). The "huge drawback" is enmity-10~20, which actually HELPS you stay behind it (such a drawback!).

Please, continue explaining why you are so dissatisfied with NIN.

Yes, other's jobs changes and progression have everything to do with me since this is a team game. The concept in a MMO is to play with others and to have fun with others. When others progress and you don't, fun just turns into bitterness because you're not useful any more, so you're not wanted either.

Cliff notes: I want my job to be better than everyone else's... like it was a few years ago, which just so happens to be the exact same time that it was "fun." Total coincidence, though.

[Lucavi]

^Total coincidence, Spider. Totally.

Seriously, a nin crying? Nin? The class that put plds on the bench for years?

Did Nins lose utsu or something? Are there no more shadows to dodge every attack in the game anymore? Can ninjas not cast utsusemi anymore? I've been out of the game too long.

[Hyan]

When not enough nerfs happen, even status quo is enough to make people bitch.

Or the classic "why did that other kid get more gummy bears than me"

[Lucavi]

Dammit, did nins lose utsu or not? That could be the only thing I can justify having a nin crying over. I mean, they can still tank, they can still DD, they can still nuke, they can still solo, they can still...

[Zeke]

Cliff notes: I want my job to be better than everyone else's... like it was a few years ago, which just so happens to be the exact same time that it was "fun." Total coincidence, though.

This. Gosh, why can't we go back to the two days where COR was the best DD in the game? Where as long as I swapped out my ACP body right, I could Quick Draw until I ran out of cards!?

[Thorny]

NIN's already very competitive as a job: 45% DW + 24% haste(25 if you skip or don't have usu sune-ate), double attack in normal setup, a good weaponskill, and access to most good weaponskill gear. Add on that they don't lose provoke, utsusemi(extra shadow too), or berserk when shadows are required for something and it's pretty boss.

It has it's downsides, like any other job, deal with it?

[Oulanbator]

Seriously, a nin crying? Nin? The class that put plds on the bench for years?

Oh lol, I knew the "Ninjas put Plds on a bench for years" argument should come out at some point.
Hey guys, it's 2010. It's been 4+ years since Plds came back on top of the scene, and it's been over 4+ years since every job in this game is putting Nin on a bench. This arguments is totally outdated. Yes, you grew older, accept it instead of talking as if we were in 2006.



Spider-dan, you really are either an idiot, either a troll.
I took the time to make detailed explanations. I anticipate all the lolcounter arguments one guy could give and break them. Yet, you still pull these counter-arguments and propose these as original ideas. I don't think you'll convince anyone other than idiots with such attitude, yet I'll re-explain shortly:


- stances have always been about about choosing between two bonuses. The malus from stances is the fact you do not have the bonus from the other opposite stance.
Adding extra maluses to stances, only for one class, that was already far from being OP, is clearly a punch in the stomach.
3rd eye is never nerfed. Sam never exchanges something they had pre hasso/seigan for something else. They just get two choose between two bonuses the one they like better.

- enmity down is good ? Because it's not like game have turned into melee burn where everyone tanks and where the mobs continuously bounces from player to player. Enmity down kicks you out of the group of people able to bounce hate, so basically you're useless, because the group is better with someone able to bounce/pull hate when needed to protect his teammates if needed. Thanks SE, Innin, that was another mean idea.
On a side note, standing in the back fulltime doesn't work at all when we bounce mobs. Punctual positioning like Thfs and Sams do is different.

- You pull out big numbers like "30% crit rate" that only last for 10s. These values tend to go down really fast. So it's not like people were getting a permanent 30% crit boost or constant +30 accuracy. In a game where it's all about finding the good balance of stats, a JA making your stats change over time is somehow like shooting a bullet in your feet.

Cliff notes: I want my job to be better than everyone else's... like it was a few years ago, which just so happens to be the exact same time that it was "fun." Total coincidence, though.

I don't want my job to be better: I want to be fucking equal !!!! To justify my spot in a group instead of continuously getting shit such as "you Pld/Mnk/War would be better". If playing the Nin job over similar jobs sounds like a whimp to the group, there is something not working with this job.
How is this hard to understand ?

NIN's already very competitive as a job: 45% DW + 24% haste, double attack in normal setup, a good weaponskill, and access to most good weaponskill gear...

That's what I said earlier: the job is reduced to tp + ws. Even a Mnk have more things to do. Nin is now the offical afk sandwich job. That's so fun.

It has it's downsides, like any other job, deal with it?

It was... this new lv, the new refresh/ballad, the brd damage taken buff, the smn new buffs, will change everything because most jobs won't need shadows anymore, so basically the only situation where Ninja had a small chance to be on par with others (when they had to /nin) will dissapear.

[Darkmagi]

How the fuck can you determine that most jobs won't need shadows because of some shitty smn update notes? Hey guys I can cast stoneskin on rdm, I guess i won't sub nin anymore for soloing. protip: Mijin Gakure irl please.

[Oulanbator]

Read again. The keyword is +60% refresh. I'm saying it for two pages now. Other stuff like smn buff is icing on the cake.
Are you really THAT stupid or are you trying to troll ?