Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

[Dooom]

That's what I said earlier: the job is reduced to tp + ws. Even a Mnk have more things to do. Nin is now the offical afk sandwich job. That's so fun.

"Hey guize we have these new stances that revolve around positioning but I don't wanna move around so I'll just QQ instead".

And have you considered that new MP buffs are needed because HP totals are rising, how much damage mobs deal will rise, and so higher level cures will be needed which cost more MP. Furthermore who invites a smn to meleeburn groups, and who would waste a song spot on a PDT song even in a 2 bard party, unless it's super strong? Then further consider that monsters still have wtfbbq moves which can one-shot people without shadows, third eye doesn't stop spells, and so on and so forth.

Are you really THAT stupid or are you trying to troll ?

Same question to yourself.

[Kayatani]

It was... this new lv, the new refresh/ballad, the brd damage taken buff, the smn new buffs, will change everything because most jobs won't need shadows anymore, so basically the only situation where Ninja had a small chance to be on par with others (when they had to /nin) will dissapear.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h5...at04-Copy2.jpg

[Oulanbator]

"Hey guize we have these new stances that revolve around positioning but I don't wanna move around so I'll just QQ instead".

Ok, first you're reducing my though to only positioning, which I find really harsh and insulting. I had a complete though revolving around positioning, malus from these stances, comparisons to other stances existing in the game, job all-in-one concept, splitting of potential etc...

Coming in to post a "you QQ about positionning" is definitely not respectful of the guy building constructive thoughts. If you cannot think better, do the world a favour and stop thinking.

And have you considered that new MP buffs are needed because HP totals are rising, how much damage mobs deal will rise, and so higher level cures will be needed which cost more MP.

Well, I got like +30 Hp on last update. I don't think higher cures are needed given the Hp boost I got. If you apply +60% to 1300 Hp, you rise up to 2000... which I doubt will happen.
So, the scaling between Hp growth and refresh growth isn't balanced at all, which explicitly means healers will have a higher curing potential, which seems to be one of the main concepts in this update: more healing because people will use less shadows hence take more damage.
Why do you think they gave dual-wield to jobs that actually need this JT ? To encourage them subbing something that doesn't have utsusemi.

Furthermore who invites a smn to meleeburn groups, and who would waste a song spot on a PDT song even in a 2 bard party, unless it's super strong? Then further consider that monsters still have wtfbbq moves which can one-shot people without shadows, third eye doesn't stop spells, and so on and so forth.

No one does such shit. Why do you pick all the worst possible uses of a JA/spell and list them all pretending these are valid arguments ? Are you dumb ? No one buys your shit you know.

However, if you find yourself tanking some NM with a Mnk/war and a War/sam, maybe you'll find uses for the PDT song or the smn buff. These + the higher healing potential, plus various other things in the game will probably lead to a point where utsusemi won't be needed at all any more.

Same question to yourself.

I hope you got your answer.
Do not make a post to quote this and answer "you suck" without making a full elaborated and intelligent demonstration of why Ninja is a beast and should be happy with this update and doesn't need anything new. If you do a lolpost you'll prove everyone you're at the same time a troll and an idiot.

[mdkuser]

Do tell, exactly how +5~10% more JA haste is shitty, please.

Because it only viable in big alliance fights where you can trade brd between parties/allies. Hardly anything is fought with more than 10 nowadays. Soon as you let the COR "DD" it means the 6th spot is used for trading the bards, so you end with at best 3 DDs. The fact that COR sucks at generating damage, that it has 1 min recast on rolls (=> you don't trade CORs), and that at high haste WS delay (2 seconds) implies that those last 5% don't do much, means it's essentially retarded.

[Dooom]

If you cannot think better, do the world a favour and stop thinking.

Mirror etc.

Well, I got like +30 Hp on last update. I don't think higher cures are needed given the Hp boost I got. If you apply +60% to 1300 Hp, you rise up to 2000... which I doubt will happen.

Abyssea HP buff says hi. Where is the vast majority of new content and endgame taking place? Abyssea. So it's not 30hp at all.

Why do you think they gave dual-wield to jobs that actually need this JT ? To encourage them subbing something that doesn't have utsusemi.

I still /nin a fair bit on dancer depending on the situation; thf however, I still see myself subbing ninja simply for utsu in most situations. And /nin is still - and will continue to be - the sub of choice for DD-tanks. I imagine it still will be for thf simply due to the loltastic level of DW it looks like they'll get.

No one does such shit. Why do you pick all the worst possible uses of a JA/spell and list them all pretending these are valid arguments ? Are you dumb ? No one buys your shit you know.

Wait, so you're saying my argument is dumb because no one uses summoners or will waste a song spot on PDT, yet earlier you said...

It was... this new lv, the new refresh/ballad, the brd damage taken buff, the smn new buffs, will change everything because most jobs won't need shadows anymore, so basically the only situation where Ninja had a small chance to be on par with others (when they had to /nin) will dissapear.

Way to say your own argument is shit there.

However, if you find yourself tanking some NM with a Mnk/war and a War/sam, maybe you'll find uses for the PDT song or the smn buff.

How often will people seriously be in this situation, and where they cannot go change jobs/subs? Pretty much fucking never.

I hope you got your answer.

Indeed I did. Nowhere did I comment on ninja or it's relative power level; I simply pointed out how stupid your posts are.

[Byrthnoth]

Blah blah blah. If you don't like NIN's stances then nothing makes you use them.

The job hasn't changed, what people expect out of it and how people build parties around it has changed, along with the general dynamic of the game.
1) No one gives a shit about having tank at meleeburn events anymore.
2) NIN's damage isn't a good enough to keep up with other DD/NINs.
3) Monsters don't live long enough to be worth debuffing.
4) People stopped gearing for Evasion because it severely gimped their damage and they couldn't hold hate. Another NIN advantage gone.
5) Similarly, because people used to gimp their damage in favor of Evasion gear, NIN nuking was less laughable because its DPS was much shittier.

Basically, what has killed Ninja is the rise of constant 35% magic Haste parties and 20%+ equipment Haste DDs. With capped Utsu recast and floored Evasion for everyone, the only thing Ninja has in its favor is a fourth shadow on Ni, which doesn't merit its inclusion in any event. SE hasn't done anything bad to your job, the playerbase has simply outgrown the need for all of Ninja's advantages.

[Oulanbator]

I'd be in a normal day, I would ignore lots of things I saw in this tread.
However, I'm really in a angry fury day because of this update, so I'm just turning into someone mean. I don't want to push anyone to suicide, so I'll refrain from posting the answer I made.

I'll answer to this last thing and leave this thread, for the good sake of everyone.

Byrthnoth, I agree with everything you said because it's a good analysis. Except for one thing:

SE hasn't done anything bad to your job, the playerbase has simply outgrown the need for all of Ninja's advantages.

SE added more and more haste gear in order to do this. They also added job abilities do get there.
The player base basically did what SE expected them to do, it's not like something went out of SE's control to make Ninja a shit job. It's what SE decided to do.

[sruon]

Because it only viable in big alliance fights where you can trade brd between parties/allies. Hardly anything is fought with more than 10 nowadays. Soon as you let the COR "DD" it means the 6th spot is used for trading the bards, so you end with at best 3 DDs. The fact that COR sucks at generating damage, that it has 1 min recast on rolls (=> you don't trade CORs), and that at high haste WS delay (2 seconds) implies that those last 5% don't do much, means it's essentially retarded.

Well played, almost fell for it.

[NynJa]

Abyssea HP buff says hi. Where is the vast majority of new content and endgame taking place? Abyssea. So it's not 30hp at all.

Nins arent invited to endgame content because they suck and are useless...didnt you get the memo?

[Alkar]

Hey guys lets do some math before you all start hating on presto.

Reverse Flourish takes 30 secs to use.

You have mainly 2 choices, 2 steps -> reverse flourish for 63 tp, and Im saying 63 tp cause if you don't have RF fully capped and your a level 80 dancer, go get a fucking abyssea party and cap that shit right now. Otherwise, any dancer who hasn't even taken the time to cap RF has no grounds at all to act like they know what they're talking about. Seriously.

Now the beautiful thing about RF merits is they add a static amount of tp no matter how many finishes you have. So in fact if you did 5 reverse flourishes with 1 finish each, youd get 12+15 = 27 tp a pop, for a total of 135 tp from 5 finishes, as opposed to 1 reverse flourish with 5 finishes for only 75 tp.

Thats just an illustration though of how it works. Which leads me to point 1. ALWAYS use reverse flourish ASAP no matter how many finishes you have as long as your tp <250%ish. With reverse flourish merits, the LESS finishes you have, the HIGHER tp return you end up with.

But I digress, lets take a look at the two possible outcomes.

Step -> Step -> Reverse Flourish, 4 finishes, costs 20 tp, returns 63 tp, or

Presto -> Step -> Reverse Flourish, 3 finishes, costs 10 tp, returns 51 tp.

In other words, performing 2 steps and RFing instead of Presto then Stepping only gives you a 2 tp lead. Its not that shitty of a move BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE

Now lets take Acc into account, shall we?

I'll even give you 95% acc for the highest possible lead, at 95% acc you only have have a 90.25% chance at successfully landing 2/2 of the steps. And you should probably have your step acc capped assuming you have AF hands and relic feet. If you don't, once again wtf?

Presto -> Step only requires 1 hit to land, thus its a 95% chance of landing. Thus, 0.9025 * 43 (S-S-RF tp return) = average of 38.8 tp

0.95 * 41 = 38.95 average tp return.

Aka

Presto doesn't suck, in fact its a hairsbreadth better.

Also, if you can figure out a way to perform a step on the monster when there isn't one at camp, Presto still has the use of being able to prep it 10 secs before battle giving you a free finish.



tl;dr math math math presto = steps math math math presto > steps

So you're basically saying the same things I said except for you Presto is a lot better than Step>Step (when it's not) and on top of that you're saying that I have no merits on DNC because instead of using merited values in my post I used base values.
Lol, try harder.
Oh and I have hands, feet and earring fyi. Waiting for your next wall of assumptions.

[Dooom]

I'd be in a normal day, I would ignore lots of things I saw in this tread.
However, I'm really in a angry fury day because of this update, so I'm just turning into someone mean. I don't want to push anyone to suicide, so I'll refrain from posting the answer I made.

lol; pushing someone to suicide would imply that someone (anyone!) would take you seriously, which I certainly hope isn't the case.

SE added more and more haste gear in order to do this. They also added job abilities do get there.
The player base basically did what SE expected them to do, it's not like something went out of SE's control to make Ninja a shit job. It's what SE decided to do.

What did they add? Bullwhip belt, and that other 5% haste one? Hasso? Haste Samba? If there's anything I'm missing then feel free to add to it, because all I can think of is two belts (one with a horrid drop rate that not all jobs can use, one which takes considerable time to have a shot at); and JAs which are almost three years old. Oh, I guess full perle, but for most non-casual drks and drgs that just kept them at the same haste level, while allowing a load of casuals/non-endgamers to get it. The power-creep hasn't so much come from new gear - it's come from players getting smarter (realising how valuable haste is); levelling more jobs (bards are common, more and more people are now levelling dancer seriously); and people (presumably) having higher standards as a result of these two things (e.g. refusing to merit without a bard because they're common now and people know how powerful marches are, whereas previously people were going "oh shit my pt has a bard fucking ace!").

4) People stopped gearing for Evasion because it severely gimped their damage and they couldn't hold hate. Another NIN advantage gone.

Here's one point I'd raise though. Dancer and Thief (assuming light DD is enough to keep hate) are both better choices of evasion tank simply due to evasion boost traits, meaning they don't have to drop so much haste gear. I never understood why ninja didn't get these traits too.

[fredjanx]

Ace's Hose, Timarli Body/Hands, Ocelot Legs, etc
wth at the NIN QQ >_>
Also, Full perle beats the traditional non-dusk Gloves +1 setups

[mdkuser]

nvm thought you were talking ninja

[Dooom]

Ace's Hose, Timarli Body/Hands, Ocelot Legs, etc

So I forgot a bunch of stuff XD but! It doesn't change my point. That said, nor do I figure where Oulan is coming from with this "there's more haste so nin is obsolete QQ" thing.

[Byrthnoth]

Byrthnoth, I agree with everything you said because it's a good analysis. Except for one thing:

SE added more and more haste gear in order to do this. They also added job abilities do get there.
The player base basically did what SE expected them to do, it's not like something went out of SE's control to make Ninja a shit job. It's what SE decided to do.

I guess they have but... well, when I look at my WAR's Haste build I see:
Head: Turban (okay, back in RotZ gearing with modern priorities this would have been Panther Mask +1, -2% Haste)
Hands: Dusk Gloves
Ring1: Blitz Ring
Waist: Swift belt (Been around since CoP, I've had once since shortly after CoP came out. Speed belt has always been an option)
Legs: Byakko's Haidate
Feet: Dusk Ledelsens +1

So basically, if I wasn't gimp and had a Speed belt my WAR would have had the same Haste total in 2005. Meaning it wasn't SE adding Haste to the game that changed anything about WAR/NIN. If I also had Dusk Gloves +1, it'd have more Haste.

It's true that SE has made things more accessible (like Behemoth hides from Bonanza, eliminating the cap on Sacrarium, etc), but the potential for a 21-22% Haste build on WAR has existed since RotZ, and I know I've had it since before the inception of Bonanza (though not always on the same character).

What really changed a year or two after the release of ToAU was the vast increase in the number of Bards. At least 1 Bard + Haste became standard even in pickup merit parties on Garuda, let alone events. Everyone has capped Utsu recast with double marches and haste, and nothing lived long enough to need debuffs. At this point, Ninja was already an undesired job. I remember a friend justifying his choice of a Ninja as a third DD to us around this time and kind of apologizing, but saying he thought that Ninja was good because they could first Voke and pull the monsters off the bards.

Then SE made the 2H patch and things died even faster. People brought different jobs to meleeburns, and Ninja wasn't one of them.

The average quality of melee DDs and the presence of double Marches with Haste really killed Ninja. The gear Haste increases were significant for some jobs (DRK and DRG getting Homam, Turban for all including Ninja) but those jobs' desirability was relatively unaffected (DRGs with Homam were still lolDRGs, DRKs were still a bunch of emos).

[fredjanx]

Perle being the standard for DRGs and DRKs, meanwhile casual NINs don't have b.haidate also hurts NIN.
edit:@Khajit: That hurts NIN even more, lol

[Khajit]

It seems a little someone forgot about hasso.

[Oulanbator]

So basically, if I wasn't gimp and had a Speed belt my WAR would have had the same Haste total in 2005. Meaning it wasn't SE adding Haste to the game that changed anything about WAR/NIN. If I also had Dusk Gloves +1, it'd have more Haste.

Well, back in 2005 war was Dual-wielding axes. Hardcore players had joyeuse/ridill though. War didn't upgrade thought haste gear, but through 2Handed buff and /sam with Hasso.

What I talk about is, jobs like Drk, Drg, Thf, Pld, started to have access to haste though Homam.
Then SE decided to add the haste turban when not everyone could have haste on their heads.
Then SE released lots of haste items to replace/improve over haste gear (enkidu, aurum, usukane, perle, aurore). I'm probably missing a good chunk of items, but none of these were a progression in haste compared to the 2005 Ninja gear sets (that weren't too hard to access) but are a progression or an easy access for other jobs (don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying full perle is awesome).
And haste gear also became more common because items like dusk became easier to access or easier to replace. Haste gear became more common because more Omegas were killed, because more ZNMs were farmed, because more Salvage was done etc etc...

In the end, I'm pretty sure every job got a speed bonus since they added limbus except ninja who actually lost some haste (and got some back at the cost of 1% haste for -10acc... which isn't a good tradeoff).

[Fiarlia]

I can't believe the stupid. ._.

[Massimo]

I'll answer to this last thing and leave this thread, for the good sake of everyone..

Please.