Random Fail IX: hauby suck the pld

[Aurara]

You look more and more like an idiot every time you post. Pretty soon you're going to be on par with Stephano.

Stephano level? thats kinda harsh.

[Kidnoftle]

Would you rather he had said malacite?

[Aurara]

Would you rather he had said malacite?

Nope, but to say that is really...kinda silly. I have done stuff with Killertoonwife before, so i figured it would be no problem. He came out of left field and started screaming at me because i was "in the way of pinning" even after i clearly moved away.

[FailureMidgard]

Just put all of them in the damn gold boxes. Pop NMs are the best ones for farming seals. Timed NMs are heavily camped. If you're a good group, you're probably better off killing the NM for the key item anyways. If you can't or don't want to put up with traffic, just kill a pack of mobs. Simple solution is simple.

IF this were true, I'd believe you. Unfortunately, it's not, unless your only goal is 1-2 popsets for a specific NM. There's a reason I never even saw Hedetet or Ophanim once while doing a full 50 Chloris Buds. However, if you need all 3 NMs in a given zone, it's a flat out waste of time to even mess with NMs, much less spend time trying to red proc them. That being said, it is worth it in the end (once your whole group has a ton of KIs and only needs a specific 1 that was lacking).

[Yugl]

I honestly can't see how you're countering the point, but I'm probably not thinking it through. Help my discern what you're trying to say by clarifying the following:

1. State what I've said in your own terms (In one line preferably) and what you think is wrong with it
2. When you say you never saw those NMs, do you mean their chest items or the NM themselves?
3. Tahrongi, I realize is a good counterargument for farming NMs, but because it's the only applicable argument, I regarded it as a strawman argument.
4. When you say "If this were true", what are you referring to? The Pop item NMs being the best for farming seals? Timed NMs being heavily camped? Remember that this refers to scar zones only since the older zones already meet the criteria of having all the pop items in the box (Or the NM as Raen would say).

I have done stuff with Killertoonwife before

He came out of left field and started screaming at me

That's all I see.

[rog]

BUT!

Their names are fucking awesome.

I didn't even notice there was two people sending him tells lolol

[Airenn]

Some JPs were fighting Eve tonight, we stumbled upon them around 10% when they wiped we claimed with 4 and killed for a nice NIN/SAM pair of boots. :3

Have a screenie somewhere but I need sleeeep.

[FailureMidgard]

I honestly can't see how you're countering the point, but I'm probably not thinking it through. Help my discern what you're trying to say by clarifying the following:

1. State what I've said in your own terms (In one line preferably) and what you think is wrong with it

You think it's better to farm NMs for KIs than to Cleave for them.

2. When you say you never saw those NMs, do you mean their chest items or the NM themselves?
3. Tahrongi, I realize is a good counterargument for farming NMs, but because it's the only applicable argument, I regarded it as a strawman argument.

The NMs themselves, because they are worthless and a waste of time. I could say the same about Konschtat also...exp for KIs, go pop NMs to finish off a few sets after you have 5 people with 4/5 missing the same NM. For Carabosse it's a different story, but when you examine why, it's because it only takes 2 KIs, out of 9 possible from box, which I already said if you only want 1 NM, then ya...if you want Cara, Briareus, and Hadhayosh in near equal quantities, I'd just cleave/exp for KIs in LaTheine too...

4. When you say "If this were true", what are you referring to? The Pop item NMs being the best for farming seals? Timed NMs being heavily camped? Remember that this refers to scar zones only since the older zones already meet the criteria of having all the pop items in the box (Or the NM as Raen would say).

Killing NMs being better for popsets than gold boxes under the assumption you need every KI you can get. You keep going back to seals, and I'm honestly confused - do people still need seals at this point in the game? I mean, I realize people do, but honestly that's just because people are slacking or don't play much at all I guess...regardless, I don't see it as a good thing as making seals the only reason to kill NMs. Compare how easy it is to claim Iktomi to Gukumatz. It's quite clear that most people aren't after the seals. And I'm sorry, but old zones -are- the example of what happens when you put every KI in a box. Don't like Tahrongi? Fine. I've killed Eccentric Eve some ~15 times now and Kukulkan around 30, I'm going to ignore Fistule and Tree because I've killed them several times for other items (Iga neck and Emp item). I've never fought Alkonost, Keratyrannos, or Arimaspi a single time. They are all first tier pops and don't have the BS that Tahrongi does. I've never killed Raskovnik or Clingy Clare either. Again, no 2nd tier NMs there. I've also never fought Gangly Gean for KI (though killed it a few times to get Iga neck), and I've fought Fistule for KI once. I realize some people do fight them, but I think there should be a good incentive to want to fight NMs and do the "real" content.
On the other hand, I've fought Tonberry Lieje many times because *gasp* KI didn't come from a box.

I'm sorry, but I think putting every KI in the boxes is a huge design error. I also think that having the timed NMs as a cockblock kinda sucks, but it's still nowhere near as bad as 1 pop per 24 hrs ala Aery. ~30 kills per day is pretty reasonable, and I think people are blowing how bad they are out of proportion here. Yes, I would be in favor of switching boxes to only have timed pop KIs in them, but atm I think that Scars did box-KIs better than Visions.

[NynJa]

Seen plenty of nights with Heqet's Aery looking like that. What makes it worse is when groups don't have the jobs to trigger red, so claim it, don't get the key item, and no progress is made.

trio last night of rdm brd thf claimed asanbosam...no red
Seen duo's of whm+mnk claim amun, didnt even BOTHER trying for red. Seals? No TH, and didnt even bother with grellow. What a fucking waste of time.


SE needs to move the timed NM's KI's to Pyxis and the pop NM's just on trigger NM's. In a sense, I kinda understand why they didnt put them all in Pyxis (lets go to *Vision area* and cleave 50 mobs at once and load up on NM pops), but putting pathetic KI's that can be repopped every 3 minutes in pyxis and leaving chokepoint NM's that repop once every 30-60 minutes out of a Pyxis is taking a step backwards.

[Aurara]

At least it wasnt Malacite level, thank god i havent reached that yet.

[Yugl]

You think it's better to farm NMs for KIs than to Cleave for them.

It's better on the basis of expediency. If you have enough to kill the NM, you can probably breeze through non-tahrongi pop NMs. Since you can trigger red, it should not be an issue. What's even more interesting is that you can technically farm gold boxes while doing NMs if mass farming. In short, what is your goal and what are your resources?

What's interesting is that you argue that it's better for people to farm the KI instead of killing the NMs, yet you conclude:

I'm sorry, but I think putting every KI in the boxes is a huge design error.

Nothing about your post, that I will now address, explains why you draw this conclusion.

The NMs themselves, because they are worthless and a waste of time. I could say the same about Konschtat also...exp for KIs, go pop NMs to finish off a few sets after you have 5 people with 4/5 missing the same NM.

Building Amber, killing mobs that yield non-KI gold chests, mobs that drop ruby boxes, Non-time/2hr blue boxes, and so forth are all waste of time. Anything that does not allow you to cleave or provide KI is a waste of time with respect to the goal attaining a pop set. This all goes back to the main point: It's generally faster to kill NMs.

For Carabosse it's a different story, but when you examine why, it's because it only takes 2 KIs, out of 9 possible from box, which I already said if you only want 1 NM, then ya...if you want Cara, Briareus, and Hadhayosh in near equal quantities, I'd just cleave/exp for KIs in LaTheine too...

Who needs XP besides leeches? If you need multiple pop sets, why aren't those leeches on something useful spamming the shit out of NMs and getting 18 pops?

Killing NMs being better for popsets than gold boxes under the assumption you need every KI you can get.

Of course. That and speed were the entire premise of the post. If you have external goals to achieve, gold boxes will obviously help you there, but specifically farming all key items as fast as possible is best done through the NMs.

You keep going back to seals, and I'm honestly confused - do people still need seals at this point in the game?

Popped NMs are popular for seals (At least here) since you can mass kill them. If people wanted to farm multiple KI NMs for the zone boss or AF3+2, you would *add* competition under your "ideal setting" because people cleave burning from boxes then need to kill pop NMs for the KI. Is it less miserable than a time spawned NM? Certainly. Would it have created more havoc for pop NMs when they initially came out (i.e. before everyone started getting them)? Of course. The real question I should pose to you is why not have all KI in gold boxes and reduce potential conflict in the game?

I mean, I realize people do, but honestly that's just because people are slacking or don't play much at all I guess...regardless, I don't see it as a good thing as making seals the only reason to kill NMs.

I'm bringing up seals because by excluding them from chests, you force people to spam them if they want multiple NM pops. It's not an argument for why NMs are faster (And how could it be? Seals don't magically make you get key items faster). It's pointing out that you're bringing two groups into conflict: Those that need seals and those that need pop items. You might retaliate with "Well Yugl, if NMs are the best way to go, then aren't they already in conflict?". The answer is no because groups don't necessarily work in the manner that is most expedient for them to obtain pop sets. They have divergent goals or technical difficulties (read: Gimps) that prevent them from utilizing this method. However, by removing the ability of people to sidestep pop NMs, you heighten the possibility of this tension.

Compare how easy it is to claim Iktomi to Gukumatz. It's quite clear that most people aren't after the seals.

This prove my point quite nicely. Since there is no incentive for people to kill Iktomi if their only goal is KIs, people can be relatively assured that he or she will not be claimed. Comparatively, if you look Gukumatz, he is heavily camped for numerous reasons, one of which is that he provides a KI needed to pop higher tier NMs. In short, if you leave pop NM's KI out of chests and pop NMs are popular for seals, you bring two competing groups into conflict. It's less tedious than the status quo, but it's more tedious than putting all KI into chests.

And I'm sorry, but old zones -are- the example of what happens when you put every KI in a box.

4. When you say "If this were true", what are you referring to? The Pop item NMs being the best for farming seals? Timed NMs being heavily camped? Remember that this refers to scar zones only since the older zones already meet the criteria of having all the pop items in the box (Or the NM as Raen would say).

Don't like Tahrongi? Fine. I've killed Eccentric Eve some ~15 times now and Kukulkan around 30, I'm going to ignore Fistule and Tree because I've killed them several times for other items (Iga neck and Emp item). I've never fought Alkonost, Keratyrannos, or Arimaspi a single time. They are all first tier pops and don't have the BS that Tahrongi does. I've never killed Raskovnik or Clingy Clare either. Again, no 2nd tier NMs there. I've also never fought Gangly Gean for KI (though killed it a few times to get Iga neck), and I've fought Fistule for KI once. I realize some people do fight them, but I think there should be a good incentive to want to fight NMs and do the "real" content.

All of this is simply an account of what you do. None of it suggests that NM killing is slower than gold box farming (Which is random and can fuck you over if it so pleases). The only thing you've shown is what you do and suggest that there should be an incentive to fight the NM beyond a key item. This would be nice if I were making a statement about how people actually farm KI. However, my statement was about the fastest way to farm KI.

I'm sorry, but I think putting every KI in the boxes is a huge design error. I also think that having the timed NMs as a cockblock kinda sucks, but it's still nowhere near as bad as 1 pop per 24 hrs ala Aery. ~30 kills per day is pretty reasonable, and I think people are blowing how bad they are out of proportion here. Yes, I would be in favor of switching boxes to only have timed pop KIs in them, but atm I think that Scars did box-KIs better than Visions.

So in all of this, have you shown why having all the KI is the box is worse than having only timed NM's KI in the box? Your post only suggests that:
1. Cleave > NM
2. NMs are worthless
3. How you farm for KI
4. Cleaving grants side benefits that are unrelated to speed of obtaining pop item
5. The only people that need seals are those that are lazy or short on RL time

If anything, all of this would *favor* putting all the KI in boxes.

[FailureMidgard]

Well, accidentally hit back and lost my wall of text, but you're delusional because 18 people still won't get KIs faster than 3 people cleaving. The only difference is they get to choose which KIs they get. You've also arbitrarily decided exp is useless and seals are useful, whereas I feel the exact opposite of that.

In the end, it's irrelevant though, because good game design encourages everyone to take part in the content added. This means making incentives. That being said, SE has -never- understood this, so I don't expect most FFXI players to understand it either.

Finally, gear/items/etc shouldn't grow on trees. It shouldn't be unnecessarily tedious, but the goal is not always to make it faster and easier to get. It should take some time, effort, commitment, etc to get the items you want.

Anyway, this is pointless, your entire post as usual addresses nothing, and sits here and nitpicks at the most inane shit while making equally inane assumptions. Cleaving is, without a doubt, the fastest way to farm KIs. Period. End of story. No questions asked. Want more KIs faster because you have more than 3 people? Then set up 6 separate cleave parties in the zone. It remains true even when you don't want it to be true, I'm sorry.

[Karbuncle]

I don't mind not adding all Key items to the Brown boxes, Cause adding all of them is in itself a bit too easy...

but at the same time, Turning every single timed spawn NM into Abyssea-Aery when the window opens is annoying and is very frustrating.

So maybe, as I'm sure it was suggested, It would be such much nicer to have World-Spawn NMs key items be in brown boxes, not the forced pop. Maybe I didn't spend nearly enough time in Dragon's Aery buying 3,000$ bots to actually want Key items removed from boxes cause Cleaving makes it too easy, but I don't think its too radical to be upset that on servers with any respectable Abyssea shells that camping NMs for pop items turns into standing in a big pit waiting for the NM to pop like the horrible days of Ground Kings.

I don't think having 2 methods of obtaining Key items is a Design flaw, I liked it, and it does require some amount of Effort. I'd venture to say Building Amber/Coordinating a Cleave-burn takes as little/as much effort as killing those sad excuse for NMs that drop key items (in Old zones that is).

Either way, Continue

[Yugl]

Well, accidentally hit back and lost my wall of text, but you're delusional because 18 people still won't get KIs faster than 3 people cleaving. The only difference is they get to choose which KIs they get. You've also arbitrarily decided exp is useless and seals are useful, whereas I feel the exact opposite of that.

Do you read what you respond to? This is just like that part of your post where you said "Sorry, Visions zones are exactly the model" when I specifically said that they were an example of what an all KI in gold box zone would look like. Here, you've breezed over the fact that I've explicitly stated that seals being useful is irrelevant. XP and Seals are BOTH irrelevant since my post was not talking about the total sum benefits of Box v NM because we already agree that box offers more if you include these factors. It's about the KI themselves.

In the end, it's irrelevant though, because good game design encourages everyone to take part in the content added. This means making incentives. That being said, SE has -never- understood this, so I don't expect most FFXI players to understand it either.

So your entire argument for excluding pop NM's key items from gold boxes is because it makes the game better given your definition of a good game? Bravo. If you want people to partake in all content, you would just exclude all key items from gold boxes and give augmented items instead. You get participation for all NMs and gold boxes.

Finally, gear/items/etc shouldn't grow on trees. It shouldn't be unnecessarily tedious, but the goal is not always to make it faster and easier to get. It should take some time, effort, commitment, etc to get the items you want.

Yet, you cleave burn because you believe it's better than NMs? You could just drag the shell through tons of NMs and have your time, effort, and commitment while sparing others the tyranny of your opinion.

Anyway, this is pointless, your entire post as usual addresses nothing, and sits here and nitpicks at the most inane shit while making equally inane assumptions. Cleaving is, without a doubt, the fastest way to farm KIs. Period. End of story. No questions asked. Want more KIs faster because you have more than 3 people? Then set up 6 separate cleave parties in the zone. It remains true even when you don't want it to be true, I'm sorry.

"I'm right because I'm right and anyone who disagrees is wrong". Ok FM, I see how you assert yourself. As for addressing pointless topics, it was your idea to bring up the subject.

[FailureMidgard]

Yet, you cleave burn because you believe it's better than NMs? You could just drag the shell through tons of NMs and have your time, effort, and commitment while sparing others the tyranny of your opinion.

No, we don't cleave for KIs...guess what, you can only get 4 KIs per zone...

So your entire argument for excluding pop NM's key items from gold boxes is because it makes the game better given your definition of a good game? Bravo. If you want people to partake in all content, you would just exclude all key items from gold boxes and give augmented items instead. You get participation for all NMs and gold boxes.

No, because there's a happy medium. You know, kinda like they actually did a decent job achieving in Scars, except it shifts the KIs to be more reasonable. Would I be fine with 0 KIs in chests? Yes, but I also feel that NMs like Amun, Heqet, Guku are bad and detrimental. So sure, my ideal would be to make those popped NMs, barring that, add their KI to chests and remove the current. Do you understand now?

And I'm amazed that you can argue against me saying that a game encouraging it's players to play it is bad design. Clearly a good game is one that tries to get you to not do the content!

"I'm right because I'm right and anyone who disagrees is wrong". Ok FM, I see how you assert yourself. As for addressing pointless topics, it was your idea to bring up the subject.

Average for a 3-4 man cleave is 1-3 KIs per 3minutes. Repop time for a ??? is 3min, assuming you kill it in 0 seconds while red proccing, you still get less than Cleave. In fact, it isn't even remotely near. I'm honestly shocked you can even suggest that killing an NM is faster than cleaving for KIs. It's only better in new zones because cleaving doesn't give you full sets.

[rog]

Average for a 3-4 man cleave is 1-3 KIs per 3minutes. Repop time for a ??? is 3min, assuming you kill it in 0 seconds while red proccing, you still get less than Cleave. In fact, it isn't even remotely near. I'm honestly shocked you can even suggest that killing an NM is faster than cleaving for KIs. It's only better in new zones because cleaving doesn't give you full sets.

But failure, what if you have 1-2 people left over that can't make their own cleave burn? Or what if you have people left over that don't have war, smn, or rdm?

[Yugl]

No, we don't cleave for KIs...guess what, you can only get 4 KIs per zone...

You don't do what you say is best in visions zones? If not then you don't partake in what you claim is the best method. If you do, then my point stands.

No, because there's a happy medium. You know, kinda like they actually did a decent job achieving in Scars, except it shifts the KIs to be more reasonable. Would I be fine with 0 KIs in chests? Yes, but I also feel that NMs like Amun, Heqet, Guku are bad and detrimental. So sure, my ideal would be to make those popped NMs, barring that, add their KI to chests and remove the current. Do you understand now?

Yet, none of that really matters when we drag the conversation from what you personally believe everyone else should enjoy.

And I'm amazed that you can argue against me saying that a game encouraging it's players to play it is bad design. Clearly a good game is one that tries to get you to not do the content!

You're not simply demanding that content make players play, you're demanding that SE make incentive for players to partake in specific activities. Perhaps killing mobs and multitasking is more enjoyable than killing a few NMs. Why is this necessarily bad? It's an arbitrary decision you have made. You want players to do more content? Make key items come from fucking Chocobo racing. Make it so that you can't pop an NM until you've killed all the NMs in the zone. We can all be ridiculous and arbitrary about activities people "should" participate in.

Average for a 3-4 man cleave is 1-3 KIs per 3minutes. Repop time for a ??? is 3min, assuming you kill it in 0 seconds while red proccing, you still get less than Cleave. In fact, it isn't even remotely near. I'm honestly shocked you can even suggest that killing an NM is faster than cleaving for KIs. It's only better in new zones because cleaving doesn't give you full sets.

I've yet to see 1-3KI per 3min on FC burns. Perhaps you're lucky and trying to generalize that notion for everyone else?

[FailureMidgard]

But failure, what if you have 1-2 people left over that can't make their own cleave burn? Or what if you have people left over that don't have war, smn, or rdm?

Pld, Whm, Blm, Drk, Sam and more are all excellent pullers! Drk also has Fell Cleave (lol @ people thinking DRK is bad, 2nd best DD in the game tbh!).

Also, leeches are good. For 1 they can leech some 40 levels in a night, so 2 nights later they can do any of said jobs. Furthermore, you get KIs so fast, you need someone to pick them up!

[FailureMidgard]

You don't do what you say is best in visions zones? If not then you don't partake in what you claim is the best method. If you do, then my point stands.

Generally do Scars zones...when we were doing Verethragna for someone else (who organized his own runs, I didn't), yea, we cleaved it. Sorry, most of our time has been in Scars zones.

Yet, none of that really matters when we drag the conversation from what you personally believe everyone else should enjoy.

No, I'm not telling you what you should enjoy at all. I'm saying when a developer makes a game, they should do so with the intent for people to partake in the content they develop. If someone does not find the type of game fun, they should quit and find a different game. If SE develops a game you dislike, then don't play it, but the intent of any game development should be for people to play it, not for it to exist and sit to the side and be ignored. Thanks for bringing up a perfect example in Chocobo Racing though...it's quite obviously poorly designed content, which is why nobody fucking does it.

I've yet to see 1-3KI per 3min on FC burns. Perhaps you're lucky and trying to generalize that notion for everyone else?

Odd, or your pulls are really small? You pull slightly faster than once per 3 minutes, and you should be getting 1-3 KIs per pull.

[Andradi]

Can DRK actually utilise FC well without retaliation and mighty strikes, though? (How does souleater work on it?)