Job Adjustments Part II (09/03/2010)

[Damane]

Please explain.

You say that DNC is a better healer than [mages] because of TP generation vs. MP generation. AFAIK, the formula for hate generation is the same for waltzes as it is for cure spells, and a (non-WHM) mage that's casting cures fast enough that MP generation is a concern will pull hate.


Fine, but that's why I said "Unless you want your DNC to tank, that plan won't work." If your response is "I do want my DNC to tank," then just say so.

I play DNC myself alot, hate is not an issue if you are in a PT with competent DDs. With marches+haste+haste samba + haste gear + pizza + samurai roll, it is basicly not possible for me to run out of TP ever, especially with /war or /sam and Oa3 dagger. The only thing that is preventing me from curebombing is the shared waltz recasts. Even if I pull hate occasionally I still have Fan Dance to pop or in /sam cases my thrid eye + on top of that I have my evasion gear allways with me (and mind you DNC has really good evasion). I wouldnt say that DNC is the superior healer, because under healing I understand also removeing paralyze, curse and that shit, and lets be honest DNCs healing waltz is shit ass compared to everything mage/whm can offer, but if its about healed HP, then yes DNC can curebomb to no end and never run out of TP with the above buffs.

[Alkar]

P.S. How can you reduce Waltz recast?

Anwig Salade: CHR+4 "Waltz ability delay-2".
Or using Trance.

[Dooom]

Curing Waltz III is good for just over 400 HP, about the same as Cure IV. Waltz's recast is easily brought down to 7 seconds, and has no casting time. Cure's recast is generally going to be ~5 seconds, and will usually take ~2 seconds to cast. As a very active ex-red mage, I know for certain that its not all that difficult to keep a fully offensive DD alive by just using Cure IV, and that its only shortcoming is MP's finite nature. Conversely, I can literally spam waltzes infinitely and not have a problem keeping people alive. Again, its all in the support. Dancer + Bard + Haster = unlimited, timely healing.

If it's single target then sure, but if you have to start busting out the Divine Waltz 2's with their 18s timer on something that loves it's AoEs then you're starting to get into hot water. Likewise if you have to Healing Waltz, that's 13s until you can Waltz again, which is quite a bit of time. We're both very pro-dancer, we both know it's a stupidly powerful healing job, but there's still situations where it doesn't guarantee your DD can go completely all-out and forgo defensive capabilities at all (first example which comes to mind: WoE T5 Hydra, DD pulls hate, Hydra uses Physical Shield, dancer's TP gain goes through the floor being reliant on Steps -> Flourish, No Foot Rise, and potentially Meditate depending on sub), which is what started this discussion in the first place. It makes it far more likely that they can, yes, but it doesn't guarantee it.

[Delain]

I admittedly skipped about 2 pages of this thread - do people not know the reference of "Deus Ex Machina" (where an automaton is a machine...)? Device used in Greek plays... god out of the machine, shows up and makes everything right, etc. "Unsound" to me, would be the opposite of "sound," not limited or weakened. "I, of sound mind, blah blah"... so something unsound would be not right in the head. So I see it as a doll in a berserked state.

Berserked state seems to be the idea that is going around. Berserked state to me, however, is what Ob turns into when a PUP overloads. That would be incredible, but unlikely. The way I have been seeing DEA is purely as a stop gap measure if you lose your puppet and your timer is not up. However, I guess it is totally possible that this move will actually augment the puppet if it is already out. Very interesting thought. That would be great to throw it into berserk mode. A 1 minute timer on it would make it even more incredible. Cant wait to see what it is on Wednesday.

[Maurauc]

So, slightly off topic, but shouldn't SE have announced the update times by now? If the update is on Wednesday, we're not getting a lot of prep. time for the update.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Call me crazy, but it sounds like all of this doubt stems from an overall environment of incompetence. Healing Waltz? Spamming Divine Waltz? What is it exactly that your bards are doing? I genuinely don't remember the last time I used Healing Waltz in a group setting, and aside from zerging WoE(which dancer works flawlessly for, I might add), I only touch Divine Waltz are of pure laziness.

Moral of the story? Get bards that know how to do something other than sing two songs and go AFK.

[Dooom]

Perhaps, but as anyone knows MP is finite, and bard aren't exactly swimming in it. The only thing I'm really arguing against now is the impression you're creating (possibly unintentionally) that having a dancer and proper support suddenly makes your melee invincible. Aside from that, we agree.

[Damane]

Call me crazy, but it sounds like all of this doubt stems from an overall environment of incompetence. Healing Waltz? Spamming Divine Waltz? What is it exactly that your bards are doing? I genuinely don't remember the last time I used Healing Waltz in a group setting, and aside from zerging WoE(which dancer works flawlessly for, I might add), I only touch Divine Waltz are of pure laziness.

Moral of the story? Get bards that know how to do something other than sing two songs and go AFK.

Since when do brds have infinite MP? some of the -na spells cost 48 MP (Viruna) or 40 MP (Stona), now put a haste cycle on that and multiply it by 4. Bet you need an additional refresh source besides ballad (evokers roll) to keep MP up. and thats 4 songs cast mind you, 2 for the melees 2 for self ballad. Now put in the fact you get hit by a stupid AoE while you cast songs for your melee people, wohoo. And resting MP is not an option because of song casting and haste cycle. I am not saying its not impossible, it surely is viable for a variety of mobs, but it is also very unpractical for another variety of mobs, while the mage/whm is practical for basicly every mob. Now if there is cor/whm in that pt, thats something totally different, brd + cor both /whm can definitly get this going.

[Tsuko_Asura]

At minimum, your bards are looking at 5 MP/tick. That's 100 MP/minute before resting is considered which, lets face it, bard can do a lot of. So bard is capable of hasting and infinitely removing status issues while standing, and with a bit of minor, strategic reseting between their 20 second periods of actually having to do something, they're perfectly capable of using their ~400-600 MP to toss in the occasional Curaga II.

Edit: You people give Convert and Sublimation far more credit than they deserve. Bard's are extremely self-sufficient support mages, yours are evidently just worthless. And for the record, none of this is even theorycraft. This is what we do.

[Dooom]

Your bards don't party swap?

[Tsuko_Asura]

I can count on one hand the number of times we've done an organized event with more than one DD party, zergs included.

[Chen]

what's the 5/tick from? x2 ballads / having both serpentines / refresh body?

those ballads are going to be off at least 25% of the time

[Tsuko_Asura]

Some sort of refresh body, ballads, and Sanction or Sigil. You could say 6/tick really isn't hard to get, but not everyone has Serpentine already. Granted, all of this becomes even more silly when bard gets Ballad III in two days.

And at what point did 25% of 120 become 16?

[Damane]

At minimum, your bards are looking at 5 MP/tick. That's 100 MP/minute before resting is considered which, lets face it, bard can do a lot of. So bard is capable of hasting and infinitely removing status issues while standing, and with a bit of minor, strategic reseting between their 20 second periods of actually having to do something, they're perfectly capable of using their ~400-600 MP to toss in the occasional Curaga II.

Edit: You people give Convert and Sublimation far more credit than they deserve. Bard's are extremely self-sufficient support mages, yours are evidently just worthless. And for the record, none of this is even theorycraft. This is what we do.

100 MP/min if your ballad is never down, which is basicly not possible considering that you cast 4 songs as brd.
and thats considering if your brd has 2 refreshpieces!
if you have to haste 4 people (3DDs + 1 DNC) you are looking at 160 MP used up every 3 min, so 50MP per minute(lets be generous here
so 50 MP left of your 100 MP/min, now lets assume the enemy does a weak sauce AoE para move that (since para only costs 12 MP compared to virunas 48 MP), x4 = 48 MP
and I am sure with that much melees on mobs, you will see that mob move 1-2 times in 1 min. but lets just asume genoursly once per min
thats your 100MP - 50MP -48 MP paralyna = 2MP leftover... yeah hope your mob doesnt spam some AoE viruna shit. And this is all in the favour of the brd haveing nonstop ballad on. and no resting is not considered when you have to run a haste cycle and cast 4 songs + cast -na spells, you cant tell me a brd finds enough time to rest there.

EDIT: yes with Ballad III this could work then very well, if you throw in evokers roll form a cor then there is no stoping, as it is now tough fighting any harder "more MP intensiv" Mob is pushing it.

[Tsuko_Asura]

And for the record, none of this is even theorycraft. This is what we do.

kk

[Spider-Dan]

I play DNC myself alot, hate is not an issue if you are in a PT with competent DDs. With marches+haste+haste samba + haste gear + pizza + samurai roll, it is basicly not possible for me to run out of TP ever, especially with /war or /sam and Oa3 dagger. [blah blah blah TP generation]

Nobody disputes DNC's TP generation skillz. My question is, if you are curing so often that a SCH or RDM would run out of MP trying to do the same, how can you possibly avoid pulling hate?

That's the argument being made here: that DNC is better because of the limitations of MP generation vs. TP generation. And if this is really accurate, then it means that in short order, DNC is going to be tanking (particularly if you are talking about non-defense-minded DDs, which is the point of this tangent), which then means that DNC is going to be curing itself.

If DNC's curing power is so good that a Serious Mob can't kill you faster than you can cure yourself, why isn't DNC main tanking from jump?

[Damane]

Nobody disputes DNC's TP generation skillz. My question is, if you are curing so often that a SCH or RDM would run out of MP trying to do the same, how can you possibly avoid pulling hate?

That's the argument being made here: that DNC is better because of the limitations of MP generation vs. TP generation. And if this is really accurate, then it means that in short order, DNC is going to be tanking (particularly if you are talking about non-defense-minded DDs, which is the point of this tangent), which then means that DNC is going to be curing itself.

If DNC's curing power is so good that a Serious Mob can't kill you faster than you can cure yourself, why isn't DNC main tanking from jump?

because if DDs go all balls out you rarely get hate with all the buffs from a brd cor, you can get hate, but its rare.and if it happens there is Fan Dance. If we are talking about mediocre DDs then yes, you will most likely be full time tanking the mob and eat dirt.

[Yugl]

Unless you're spamming Divine Waltz II or your DD are simply terrible, you will not pull hate as a DNC. That said, who the fuck cares if you do? Heaven forbid the job that loses very little from keeping Utsusemi temporarily takes hate over the virtually defenseless DD in their party, amirite?

Question: Have any of you actually played with a good dancer? I run circles around my red mage in terms of healing ability(and overall utility, in terms of what we're talking about).

Try Amnesia! Make it happen Tsuko! Fix it!

[mdkuser]

I can count on one hand the number of times we've done an organized event with more than one DD party, zergs included.

Doom lives in 2004.

[Dooom]

Doom lives in 2004.

Cape Terrigan actually, but thanks for playing!

Just because I do events with more than 10 people doesn't put me in the past, it just doesn't mean I'm in a small, lowman LS.