Job Adjustments Part II (09/03/2010)

[FailureMidgard]

Nobody disputes DNC's TP generation skillz. My question is, if you are curing so often that a SCH or RDM would run out of MP trying to do the same, how can you possibly avoid pulling hate?

That's the argument being made here: that DNC is better because of the limitations of MP generation vs. TP generation. And if this is really accurate, then it means that in short order, DNC is going to be tanking (particularly if you are talking about non-defense-minded DDs, which is the point of this tangent), which then means that DNC is going to be curing itself.

If DNC's curing power is so good that a Serious Mob can't kill you faster than you can cure yourself, why isn't DNC main tanking from jump?

Because you switch targets a ton, and at least 1 DD probably opens up every fight with a large weaponskill. In a 3melee, brd, cor, dnc party, the dnc is probably regularly 2nd-3rd on hate on every mob, but opening with a cure4 is still -always- less than a WS, and one of the 3 DDs will open with a WS almost every time. Also, I think the dnc will get hate occasionally. But you're not thinking very practically here, in my personal opinion.

[FailureMidgard]

Nobody disputes DNC's TP generation skillz. My question is, if you are curing so often that a SCH or RDM would run out of MP trying to do the same, how can you possibly avoid pulling hate?

That's the argument being made here: that DNC is better because of the limitations of MP generation vs. TP generation. And if this is really accurate, then it means that in short order, DNC is going to be tanking (particularly if you are talking about non-defense-minded DDs, which is the point of this tangent), which then means that DNC is going to be curing itself.

If DNC's curing power is so good that a Serious Mob can't kill you faster than you can cure yourself, why isn't DNC main tanking from jump?

Because you switch targets a ton, and at least 1 DD probably opens up every fight with a large weaponskill. In a 3melee, brd, cor, dnc party, the dnc is probably regularly 2nd-3rd on hate on every mob, but opening with a cure4 is still -always- less than a WS, and one of the 3 DDs will open with a WS almost every time. Also, I think the dnc will get hate occasionally. But you're not thinking very practically here, in my personal opinion.

[Byrthnoth]

Also, unless I missed something my waltz 3s are pushing 500 hp, trance does nothing for recast, and dancer is a fountain of infinite cures. Normal monster delay is 210 iirc, and from personal observation it seems they have the same 2 second tp move delay we do. DNCs can heal up to 5000hp per minute. Try to calculate how hard monsters would have to hit per swing to outdamage dnc cures. Yeah, I don't know anything that hits that hard either. So the big concern is being oneshotted.
Not to mention that the situation is in absolutely no danger of changing. Monster damage capabilities are limited by the second most reasonable healer, or dnc would become mandatory.

[Yugl]

Also, unless I missed something my waltz 3s are pushing 500 hp, trance does nothing for recast, and dancer is a fountain of infinite cures. Normal monster delay is 210 iirc, and from personal observation it seems they have the same 2 second tp move delay we do. DNCs can heal up to 5000hp per minute. Try to calculate how hard monsters would have to hit per swing to outdamage dnc cures. Yeah, I don't know anything that hits that hard either. So the big concern is being oneshotted.
Not to mention that the situation is in absolutely no danger of changing. Monster damage capabilities are limited by the second most reasonable healer, or dnc would become mandatory.

TIII Dragon could rock your face with Curse > melee! That's two hits btw.

[Alkar]

Also, unless I missed something my waltz 3s are pushing 500 hp, trance does nothing for recast, and dancer is a fountain of infinite cures. Normal monster delay is 210 iirc, and from personal observation it seems they have the same 2 second tp move delay we do. DNCs can heal up to 5000hp per minute. Try to calculate how hard monsters would have to hit per swing to outdamage dnc cures. Yeah, I don't know anything that hits that hard either. So the big concern is being oneshotted.
Not to mention that the situation is in absolutely no danger of changing. Monster damage capabilities are limited by the second most reasonable healer, or dnc would become mandatory.

Trance does nothing for recast? It lowers all Waltzes recast timers to 6 seconds.

[Spider-Dan]

Are we really discussing 2HR abilities?

[Seanr]

yes.

[Byrthnoth]

Trance does nothing for recast? It lowers all Waltzes recast timers to 6 seconds.

... I didn't realize that because the last time I bothered to use it I was level 50ish <_<; Well, now it's a little more useful than I remembered.

[Tsuko_Asura]

As I came to realize only recently, Trance is absolutely ridiculous for low-man zerging(WoE educated me in this aspect). Having Divine Waltz II(400-500 Curaga) on a <6 second recast while expending no resources can essentially replace Chainspell-Stun(and fulfill the minor healing that would have been additionally required in addition to it) against anything that isn't likely to one-shot you.

[jimbobsonofgod]

Wouldn't perfect defense be a better use of a 2 hour ?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Why waste a party slot on a summoner when a dancer should already be in the party?

[Karbuncle]

Cause its... Simpler?

Less chance of Fuck-ups too i suppose =0.

I'm not arguing trance or DNC is useless, but He's right, in any situation where spamming Divine waltz II would be probable you'd likely be safer using Alexander.

[Tsuko_Asura]

In what way is it simpler? If you're not in danger of being one-shotted, you hit a macro every five seconds, and your party becomes invincible(with the added bonus of being useful for something else).

Sacrificing a slot for a summoner means your damage output is dropping by a very significant percentage, and the longer something is alive, the more opportunities it has to kill you.

[Byrthnoth]

Wouldn't perfect defense be a better use of a 2 hour ?

It sure would be if it also gave 10% Haste to the DD party you were spam curing.

[jimbobsonofgod]

add smn 2 hour, remove smn add dnc , if you are spamming waltz you aren't swinging therefore you are not getting haste samba to the melee.
Least on paper anyways.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Again, in what way is involving an additional body that requires you to introduce party-swapping into an already very safe situation simpler? Moreover, what are you not grasping about stupidly fast, unlimited Divine Waltzes making your party virtually invincible? Just because summoner is finally useful for one thing doesn't mean the same strategy should be administered everywhere else.

And just how retarded are you? Last time I checked, waltz animations didn't paralyze your ability to swing for five seconds. It works in theory, and it works in practice. Stop trying to disprove something that's already been proven.

[jimbobsonofgod]

blah blah blah same asshole shit blah blah blah

because PD does something that your precious DVII spam doesn't and that's prevent one shots.

and provided your MP pool was big enough wouldn't chainspell curaga II be better then waltz since there's probably less delay in between heals ?

[Tsuko_Asura]

As I came to realize only recently, Trance is absolutely ridiculous for low-man zerging(WoE educated me in this aspect). Having Divine Waltz II(400-500 Curaga) on a <6 second recast while expending no resources can essentially replace Chainspell-Stun(and fulfill the minor healing that would have been additionally required in addition to it) against anything that isn't likely to one-shot you.

In what way is it simpler? If you're not in danger of being one-shotted, you hit a macro every five seconds, and your party becomes invincible(with the added bonus of being useful for something else).

Sacrificing a slot for a summoner means your damage output is dropping by a very significant percentage, and the longer something is alive, the more opportunities it has to kill you.

Reading is really, really hard.

[jimbobsonofgod]

Reading all my bullshit is really, really hard.

Now that is a statement I agree with I admit I try and not read your bullshit but I gotta ask , how many mobs do you need chainspell stun for that you don't run the risk of being one shot'd ever?

[Tsuko_Asura]

You don't bother reading my bullshit? Oh god, I lol'd.

Where were you when I was doing my laundry earlier? I could have used all that ironing.