Job Adjustments Part II (09/03/2010)

[Tsuko_Asura]

You are aware that corsair and bard have incredibly similar damage-dealing capabilities, correct? The only real difference is corsair's ability to wield a multi-hit weapon and use an extremely powerful ranged weapon skill, while bard is forced to TP in weapons that are going to produce sufficiently damaging weapon skills.

[SephYuyX]

NO BLM UPDATES

[Isiolia]

You are aware that corsair and bard have incredibly similar damage-dealing capabilities, correct? The only real difference is corsair's ability to wield a multi-hit weapon and use an extremely powerful ranged weapon skill, while bard is forced to TP in weapons that are going to produce sufficiently damaging weapon skills.

BRD also needs to spend a lot more time applying buffs, and is often relegated to pulling and thus not given the chance. In terms of pure capability, sure, BRD is better than given credit for. What they don't tend to have is the opportunity, though again, the mechanics of the job don't lend themselves to it quite as much either. I've parsed at THF level (well, level of a THF present) on DD BRD in Dynamis...which isn't saying much, but still.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You just reiterated my point. The roles the jobs play are based purely on player pigeon-holing, it has significantly less to do with job design than most people give it credit for.

[fredjanx]

- Your assigned set of blue magic will remain stored even after changing jobs.

Fuck. Yeah.

[Isiolia]

You just reiterated my point. The roles the jobs play are based purely on player pigeon-holing, it has significantly less to do with job design than most people give it credit for.

Well, in part it has to do with what COR doesn't have. They have a comparably limited crowd control repertoire. Guns are slow (though chakrams are not, and they can use a Mamoolbane as well as the next guy), and so on.

I'd still say that cast times and shorter song duration would be a detriment, and you are limited to physical DD in the comparison - BRD has nothing really comparable to Quick Draw elemental damage.

Thing is, it's a fair comparison for nearly every job save SCH and BLM. Nearly any can put up halfway decent physical damage given the ability to focus on it and the proper support. Most just have other stuff they can focus on. BRD does have a fairly good DD gear selection, and a nice WS in form of Mordant Rime...but overall it's not standout in that respect. The unique aspect of the job is songs.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Wouldn't Curdled Plasma Broth be made FROM a clot, not to summon a clot?

Fish Oil Broth does not summon a fish. Carrot Broth does not summon a carrot.

That does make more sense, but what I was thinking of was how slime creatures are always merging/splitting, so a clot can eat a clot without any ethical concerns.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You also have to keep in mind that some of the things you're listing are no longer relevant. While capable, bards are very rarely called upon for crowd control, because when its actually necessary, you're usually better off bringing at least one black mage along to cover that. Obvious exceptions being things like particular Einherjar instances, but, again, its not very commonplace. In addition to the fact that, as you mentioned, corsair is very capable of holding their own at pulling should they choose to outfit themselves in such a way, most(if not all) forms of bard-pulling have been obsoleted. True mage jobs make infinitely better pullers in Abyssea, and with the arrival of bards' ability to handle 2/3 forms of non-equipment haste, and subsequently the general obsoleteness of magic-reliant healers in a world where dancers flourish(buh-dum-Cshh), there are far better things for idle-support to be doing than fishing.

It just comes down to corsair being slightly better at it, but it really is just that- a slight advantage. My only point is merely that the difference is often attributed to some sort of ground-breaking variation in job capability, rather than our preferences.

And for the sake of reiteration, I'm not suggesting that bards whip out their Hecatomb and go to town. Idle discussion only, and nothing more.

[Spider-Dan]

For example, the only real buff that BRD has over COR is March. Which COR isn't getting -exactly-, but is getting effectively in two separate rolls.

Unless Blitzer's is ridiculously powerful, at the end of the day, Blitzer's + Caster's will likely be <= March2+March1. When March3 comes out, BRD will completely outclass COR on delay/recast reduction, yet again.

Why? Because apparently COR is immune from tier-ups, and has to get shiny new rolls. Where's the DA song, XP bonus song, MAB song, etc?

The same place that the Haste roll, elemental resistance roll, Slow roll, and AOE sleep rolls are?

COR will have 24 rolls at the conclusion of the next update. BRD has over three times that. Let's not start arguing about how BRD gets "screwed" because they only get to use new, more powerful versions of their best songs.

And? It was a unique thing BRD could do. Until they put in Bolter's, with fewer restrictions...granted, they're making things equal with this patch, but still. There was no reason COR "had" to have Bolter's at all anyway.

In other words, giving COR (some of!) the same toys BRD has had for years = shitting on BRD.

Well, yes and no. First, it's a different effect, as Marches don't help cast time in the slightest. Second, compared to a single march, it's not necessarily far off.

Compared to March 2, on average, Blitzer's is about half as effective at reducing cast time (~6% vs ~11%). When March 3 comes out, it will be even more lopsided.

Again, the one big stand-out buff from BRD...and COR gets something similar. Really, not just BRD, but DNC too. Why does COR get to step on so many toes just to avoid getting tier-ups?

Because their most significant unique buff was obsoleted?

Evoker's already potentially adds 3-5MP/tick in a single buff slot.

The average return on Evoker's (without SMN but with relic hat) is 2.6 MP/tick. Ballad3 will likely beat that by itself, whereas the game had previously been balanced so that BRD needed Ballad2+Ballad1 to beat it. Again, hardly shitting on BRD.

Yet the mechanics of songs require a lot more time on the part of a BRD. SE isn't exactly doing jack or shit about that, and instead put in yet more to reward CORs for rolling lucky numbers.

1) Roll vs. song has always been "easy to renew, short duration" vs. "hard to renew, long duration" so there's not much point in complaining about that. I'm not going to sit here and complain about BRD having every song on it's own recast; that's simply the difference between the two jobs.

[Draylo]

Wow I'm very exciting about this, can't wait for the update. I didn't really mind the BLU spells resetting because I don't always have the same setup, it varies to situation. Just wish there was a macro we could keep that could assign our spells that way. Battery charge, hope that works out well and doesn't end up being lame. Everything else is pretty nice.

[Samonez]

The Battery Charge fix has me worried.


Though everything else in this update seems awesome.

[Damane]

RDM was my first job. I know how it is. Point is more that BRD, as the original buffing job, one that's still basically just focused on that (and pulling), is really not getting a lot added. In terms of buffs, BRD is already crappy unless stacking buffs with another job (or 2hr'ing) because of the two-song limit. The cumulative effect is already what's desirable.

Brd is not crappy, you have to look at the whole picture not just at the buffs a brd can provide
Brd is excellent at croud controling
Has one of the STRONGEST debuffs ever: Elegy
Is one of the best jobs for pulling in exp, salvage or anywhere else
Has potent buffs that are NOT job dependend.

COR rolls only are x2 brd buffs when 1. the job is present 2. you roll a XI. Chances of that happening on pick up pt are not high. Chances that it happened in a planned event are bigger, but on events you want ELEGY and MARCHES.

Stop bitching that BRD is crappy, BRD is fuckign potent.

[Isiolia]

Unless Blitzer's is ridiculously powerful, at the end of the day, Blitzer's + Caster's will likely be <= March2+March1. When March3 comes out, BRD will completely outclass COR on delay/recast reduction, yet again.

You have inside information about March III? What completely new effects will COR get in that time?

The same place that the Haste roll, elemental resistance roll, Slow roll, and AOE sleep rolls are?

COR will have 24 rolls at the conclusion of the next update. BRD has over three times that. Let's not start arguing about how BRD gets "screwed" because they only get to use new, more powerful versions of their best songs.

BRD has a bunch of songs, however, they have comparably fewer actual effects if you lump them categorically:

DEF up
ATT up
EVA up
ACC up
RAcc up
Haste
Elemental Resist
Status Resist
HP regen
MP regen
Movement speed
Reraise
Enmity down (merit)
Enmity loss down (merit)

Since there's the two buff limit, actual use for defensive buffs is pretty low. For 75->85, what's added to that? One buff. Every other song is adding to the same status effects BRD can already provide, and of those, -one- is actually something you'd use on a regular basis.

Ten levels, and about the best you can say for BRD's buff library is that they'll get a stronger Ballad.

Meanwhile, COR gets four completely new-to-them effects.

In other words, giving COR (some of!) the same toys BRD has had for years = shitting on BRD.

It's more a tit-for-tat. You fussed that you don't have the few things BRD still has that COR doesn't. Where is BRD getting stuff that COR has and it doesn't?

Because their most significant unique buff was obsoleted?

So COR is useless outside of XP?

The average return on Evoker's (without SMN but with relic hat) is 2.6 MP/tick. Ballad3 will likely beat that by itself, whereas the game had previously been balanced so that BRD needed Ballad2+Ballad1 to beat it. Again, hardly shitting on BRD.

When it's about the only truly useful thing they're getting in ten levels (other than the JA), yeah, it kind of is. Not that they're the only job in that situation, but still.

[ronin sparthos]

Wow I'm very exciting about this, can't wait for the update. I didn't really mind the BLU spells resetting because I don't always have the same setup, it varies to situation. Just wish there was a macro we could keep that could assign our spells that way. Battery charge, hope that works out well and doesn't end up being lame. Everything else is pretty nice.

Honestly im more worried that they could botch Fantod or Quadratic Continuum which would be a huge letdown. Please no Asuran Claws 2 SE, anything but that. Blazing Bound / Acrid Stream were fail that were made up for with self-regen/fresh/haste but in this update its either a hit or a miss regarding damaging spells.

At the worst this Battery Charge change puts it on even timers with Animated Wail which is great for self-cycling on BLU even if it results in less MP/time.

Im hoping Vanity Dive is enough to push Mandibular Bite out of my spellset for one.

[Isiolia]

COR rolls only are x2 brd buffs when 1. the job is present 2. you roll a XI. Chances of that happening on pick up pt are not high. Chances that it happened in a planned event are bigger, but on events you want ELEGY and MARCHES.

Stop bitching that BRD is crappy, BRD is fuckign potent.

Depends on the roll for one. Second, it does matter that COR does things in one roll where BRD might need both rolls to equal it, since both jobs are operating on a two buff limit.

Secondly, you likely misunderstand. If you want to talk about pure support effectiveness, neither job touches RDM, WHM, etc without factoring in subjob. Again, two song/roll limit. A RDM, for example, can Protect, Shell, Regen, Refresh, Haste, and Phalanx - Barspells from sub (or from WHM main and take out Phalanx) - effectively raise accuracy (Gravity), evasion (Blind), ATT (Dia) or DEF further (Bio), can Para/Slow, and so on. A BRD can do any one or two of those things at a given time, but that's it, other than Elegy of course.
Their real effectiveness is the fact that they can stack Marches on top of Haste, or Ballads on top of Refresh, and so on.

Now, particularly with the new level cap(s), what they can do from sub too adds on, but then again RDM or WHM gets more from a sub too.

[Shadida]

Is anyone else worried that if COR gains TP for using QD, that the mob will too? The fact that QD gave the mob 0 TP was one of the best things about it.

Also, I guess DRGs are better than RNGs at whining, would be nice if we could use Unlimited Shot merits to lower Double Shot recast...

[Rocl]

Is anyone else worried that if COR gains TP for using QD, that the mob will too? The fact that QD gave the mob 0 TP was one of the best things about it.

I think that is what everyone is worried about w/ the Quick Draw changes.

Also, I guess DRGs are better than RNGs at whining, would be nice if we could use Unlimited Shot merits to lower Double Shot recast...

drg power represent, i hadn't finished jump recast cause drg was my freshest 75 when update hit so i used spirit jump a lot anyway, now i get to use it morrrrrre

[ronin sparthos]

Why are people worried about QD giving TP when Jump has been doing damage with no TP for years?

[Malacite]

Never mind that, while it's only a small portion of all BRD out there, Gjallar Horn does far more for BRD than Death Penalty does for COR.

I'm almost scared to see just how SE is going to buff it with ToM next week. I mean Christ even just 1 more +1 to all songs would be over powering, never mind +2 on the level 85 version (assuming it goes that high and they don't hold it back since it's the 1st set of updates)


Where's the love for the other jobs not mentioned though? Last update every job got a little something (some more than others) but so far there are a few jobs that aren't get shit save for AF3. I can has auto-refresh II now on PLD or SMN? >.> I mean shit, WHM got auto-regen II (which I still think should be a PLD trait instead but w/e)

[mdkuser]

Depends how you count it. I am certain a party with 3 DDs, COR, BRD, and a haster does more damage than 3DDs, BRD, THF, and a haster.

Dia 3, berserk