Abyssea - Vunkerl Discussion

[Ocara]

by "conservatively" do you mean just keeping footkick up or do you mean "waiting" to use ws's instead of just face breaking it? (kind of interested in how people are doing these nm's on mnk tanks)

There's not much to it. counterstance, normal h2h, chi penance, shadows if normal hits are a problem. It's probably more that people have shitty mages, not gearing optimally (eva tanking, casting utsu too much, crappy tp/ws sets, lolbonnet etc) that's causing the slowdown, not really a tanking playstyle persay.

[Dooom]

Atma choices could have an impact. Picking HP + DD Atma over 2 DD Atmas is a pretty big choice/difference between offensive and more defensive options.

[Guitarman]

Ebon hoof + Raized Ruin is what i've been using when i monk tank. Puts me at around 3100 hp, plus allows me to whip out some big ascetic's fury numbers. As Ocara said, keep counterstance up, and with perfect counter, there should be no problem getting :ichi up anymore for monk, unless what you're fighting is stripping your shadows faster than your timers can handle. (Last 15% of Whiro comes to mind), which is what the Ebon Hoof atma is there for.

[Kidnoftle]

There's not much to it. counterstance, normal h2h, chi penance, shadows if normal hits are a problem. It's probably more that people have shitty mages, not gearing optimally (eva tanking, casting utsu too much, crappy tp/ws sets, lolbonnet etc) that's causing the slowdown, not really a tanking playstyle persay.

This. Players having to rethink their tanking strategy because spamming cures is too hard is normally what makes a mob outlast you. Whm with miniken atma and half decent gear can spam cureV/IV everytime the timer is up and never really run into mp issues, unless you're fighting it for like 15min (conservative guess). Cruor meds alone get you an additional 1700mp ish (lucid, dusty, etherI/II). Personally my whm mule is terribly geared and can still keep up on heavy curing without much of a problem. Unless the tp shot hits for above 1.8k I don't really see you having a problem getting hp up intime (assuming a mnk has around, what, 2500hp at least?)

[Darkmagi]

Ebon hoof + Raized Ruin is what i've been using when i monk tank. Puts me at around 3100 hp, plus allows me to whip out some big ascetic's fury numbers. As Ocara said, keep counterstance up, and with perfect counter, there should be no problem getting :ichi up anymore for monk, unless what you're fighting is stripping your shadows faster than your timers can handle. (Last 15% of Whiro comes to mind), which is what the Ebon Hoof atma is there for.

With refresh atmas, Utsu should be an emergency tool at most unless the mob does dangerous or annoying TP moves. Casting shadows = less DOT.

[Francisco]

Need more cures then... or maybe better atmas...

Was using Atma of the Hero and Atma of the Sellsword... I don't have any of the really good ones yet. Other than that, my gear is pretty close to optimal...

TP: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/174262
WS: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/183434

I usually have anywhere from 2600-2900 HP depending on Martello Cores.

- Didn't Counterstance.
- Mob didn't "spam" Maelstrom as someone (either here or Wiki) claimed... but it was it's only TP move.
- Did cast Utsusemi, when possible.

I've noticed some of these NMs really set WHM apart from RDM. This is one of them. A single Cure V or Cure VI fixes everything. Cure IV just doesn't seem to cut it on this mob and Blazing Eruca's Incinerate. I haven't played a mage myself since early 2005, so I can't really say too much on how "hard" it is to cure 1200 HP with nothing but Cure III and Cure IV before the next TP usage.

I can say that when we switched from WHM main heal to RDM main heal on an Eruca, it went from being an absolute joke, to easy - but worrisome because I'd sit at 700 HP a few seconds too long for comfort.

[Kidnoftle]

Yeah, that sounds about right. I stopped bringing my mule on rdm along time ago to t1 nms unless para or addle had a major effect, and mostly then just para. Once you get better atmas things will just become considerably easier. At this point half the game is atmas anyway, I assume it will continue on that path. Any mob that can drop your hp by over 1.2k in a span of less than 4 seconds should probably be handled by a whm. Also, if whm is your only option for healer make them pop an ascetics and toss a slow on the mob as well, it's not much but it does help a little.

[Francisco]

MNK, WHM, BLM = 100x easier than the setup we had last night... (MNK, BRD, RDM, THF, DNC - and no, the THF and DNC weren't feeding it TP).

This setup made a joke out of Monkey, Sea Monk, Crawler and Rabbit. We killed Lord Varney too, but it splattered the two tarus all over the bridge when they pulled hate at 25%.

[Francisco]

Monkey, Sea Monk, Crawler and Rabbit. We killed Lord Varney too...

Want to add, Counterstance didn't really increase the damage dealt per hit by very much on any of these mobs. The exception was the Opo-opo, which landed a Spinning Claw on me for close to 1700 with Counterstance up.

Not too sure on Rabbit with Whirl Claws because it only used it 2-3 times at low HP, and I blinked or evaded all of them. Also took kind of a lot of damage on Lord Varney after Wings of Ghennea because I was stunned and couldn't Counter.

[Ocara]

Want to add, Counterstance didn't really increase the damage dealt per hit by very much on any of these mobs. The exception was the Opo-opo, which landed a Spinning Claw on me for close to 1700 with Counterstance up.

Not too sure on Rabbit with Whirl Claws because it only used it 2-3 times at low HP, and I blinked or evaded all of them. Also took kind of a lot of damage on Lord Varney after Wings of Ghennea because I was stunned and couldn't Counter.

Yeah if you're stunned or petra'd you cant counter, which is where a good phys -% build saves some damage. As with most high level mobs they hit so hard defense from a DDs standard tp set isn't worth much in damage reduction vs. damage mitigation through counters (plus the extra damage.) so cs is pretty broken. Exception to above is tp moves, some of which seem to do massive damage with no def (sickle slash, most 1 hit strong moves.) On things like Athamas I actually keep cs off to avoid taking nearly-fatal 2-3k sickle slashes if I get unlucky with when it decides to use it.

[Byrthnoth]

So, Bukhis strategies. We killed him three times last night. Once with THF, NIN, WAR, RDM/DRK, WHM, 2 BRD, BLM. Some observations from the fight:
0) This fight is much more difficult than any of the Tier 2s in Misareaux Coast.
1) In three fights I only went through 2 stacks of Holy waters. Apocalyptic Ray is not an issue when you're doing the fight this way with Holy Waters and a few people who can Cursna.
2) Lethal Triclip isn't actually the Taurus "Triclip" attack, it's an upgraded version of Mow that gives HP down/cruor buff dispel instead of Poison if it lands. It took 2-3 shadows from me (felt like 2 was a little more common than 3), Ninja reported 1-3. I suspect its base is 2 and he can double attack. This move isn't an issue unless you have hate when he uses it. Even then, it felt like the Cruor buff dispel was about 20% (occurred after damage was assigned). Relatively large AoE range.
3) Ruinous scythe is the bad TP move, but it's weird. It strips shadows and does ~1600 + Stun + (~20% Cruor buff dispel). Small AoE range, I fought at max melee distance and managed to outrun it the only time that I tried. Our BLM stunned it a few times. Once it only did 200 damage to me, and I'm at a loss to explain why.
4) Bukhis does have Double Attack, but he isn't a Monk type monster like I was expecting. No Counter, no Guard. He's the BLM Taurus from Brothers with new TP moves and a lot more HP/defense, basically.
5) The chargeup times on the dangerous TP moves are relatively short. It's worth trying to stun Ruinous Scythe because it will often reduce your melee to a single attack round from death. If you manage to stun it, hooray, but you're really making a window for Cure 5/6 and Utsusemi. Lethal Triclip is only annoying because it can dispel the cruor buffs of the person with hate. Stay on top of things and don't waste your Stun resistance when you don't need it. If it's survivable, don't stun it. Stun -aga IVs because you can.
6) Defensive tips against Bhukis. Well, he paths like an idiot and doesn't look like he has movement speed. He also doesn't use the Taurus 50% shell move. If you took a few mages/NIN with holy waters I'm sure you could down it pretty quickly and safely. You'd need to watch out for Bindga (Durinn size AoE I'd say), but I can't imagine doing it that way would be any more dangerous than the way we did it. He'd never get you with Ruinous Scythe if you were kiting, the only pain is the bats/vampyr you'd have to pull him through to get to the Conflux 00 opening area. The Ninja and Thief reported mild success with Evasion builds and Mambo, but he was still pretty accurate. We tried Scherzo to see if it would reduce Ruinous Scythe damage, but I was too busy casting Utsusemi to notice what songs I had up even.


Our strategy was to start with WAR + NIN on it, double marches. We tried mambos, but the NIN decided it wasn't really worth it (and our dualboxed bards died multiple times) so I'd pretty much just list Marches as our only songs. When someone's Cruor buffs got dispelled (and if they survived it), the Thief would steal their hate and take over as the co-tank while they rebuffed. If anyone died, they HPed and came back. Keep three shadows up even if you don't have hate. Honestly, this might be one fight where Paladins shines. They can probably survive the TP moves without cruor buffs. Paladin with a single-hitting sword + 1 DD (or just another Paladin on the other side and a hoard of BLMs) may be the way to go. Manaburn it like it's 2006.

There's a part of me that wants to try DNC on this NM, but I'm afraid that I wouldn't be able to land Violent Flourish if RDM/DRKs can't land Stun. I'm also afraid of all the TP feeding that'd go on. Giving us access to the most Dual Wield in the game and only giving us Subtle Blow 3 is kind of a kick in the teeth. We feed TP worse than thieves.

[Guitarman]

We actually fought a few Bukhis for the first time last night as well, i'll toss in our experiences along with yours.

Ruminous Scythe as said, is the big nasty attack to watch out for. I'd save stuns for this move only. BlizzagaIV was actually really weak for us. Since he gains resistance to stun fairly swiftly we just let bliz go through, It wasn't even putting our PLDs into the yellow. Any chance you remember how much you were getting hit by it for, Byrthnoth?

Apocalyptic ray is a conal doom, and it CANNOT be avoided by turning. Our 2nd tank attempted to tank this way and still got hit with doom. I would really recommend bringing a backup tank just for safety. Even with holy waters and cursnas being spammed, we lost a few people to doom. Probably won't happen to most people, and I know some won't have the luxury of bringing backup tanks, but if you're able, at least the first time you fight it, it's worth it.

Melee should designate a puller and pull a bat to tp on. Only go in on Bukhis to WS. Make sure a full 3 shadows are up to absorb ruinous scythe. One thing to note; As said above, he does cast Bindga, and fairly often, so be careful. I got nailed with a bindga + ruinous scythe combo when i was attempting to go in for a WS and it left me at 31/2320 hp. Ranged absolutely wreck this thing. Our Annihilator RNG was doing 340 dmg shots with 1900~dmg Coronach regularly.

If you took a few mages/NIN with holy waters I'm sure you could down it pretty quickly and safely. You'd need to watch out for Bindga (Durinn size AoE I'd say), but I can't imagine doing it that way would be any more dangerous than the way we did it. He'd never get you with Ruinous Scythe if you were kiting, the only pain is the bats/vampyr you'd have to pull him through to get to the Conflux 00 opening area. The Ninja and Thief reported mild success with Evasion builds and Mambo, but he was still pretty accurate. We tried Scherzo to see if it would reduce Ruinous Scythe damage, but I was too busy casting Utsusemi to notice what songs I had up even.

Your best bet is either a THF, or one of the mages pop powder boots and clear a path for the other to pull bukhis through. Run through the bats and zone through conflux 5 to deaggro.

[Byrthnoth]

We never lost anyone to doom, but perhaps we were lucky. The only time Blizzaga IV went off it hit me for 661 damage. I'd like to add that the Petrification/Dia gaze move (Lythic ray or something?) can be avoided by turning.

Ruinous Scythe damage was:
679, 706, 1604, 844, 823, 750, 192 (Stoneskin maybe? didn't show in log), 419, 1958, 774, 804, 1301, 210 (stoneskin), 611, 1640

I also noticed that sometimes he "Readies" and then "Uses" it, and sometimes he just Readies it and there's no "uses" message before the damage. If I was going through the fight again, I would check his HP percentage at the 1k+ numbers above. Barring that though, I'd say it's just a shadow-stripping AoE that can double attack. May be placebo, but looking at my logs I think my PDT gear was lowering the numbers slightly.

[Villian]

One of the AoE takes 2-4 shadows iirc, think it was ruinous scythe. The only thing annoys me about this NM is that the mob seems to use aoe after it cast -ga, killed me a few times. Find it easiest when it's spaming doom/gazed moves, I was pretty safe as war/nin @ 2.5k HP until blizzaga followed by ruinous scythe for ~2k.

[Byrthnoth]

One of the AoE takes 2-4 shadows iirc, think it was ruinous scythe. The only thing annoys me about this NM is that the mob seems to use aoe after it cast -ga, killed me a few times. Find it easiest when it's spaming doom/gazed moves, I was pretty safe as war/nin @ 2.5k HP until blizzaga followed by ruinous scythe for ~2k.

In my experience, Ruinous Scythe doesn't take a set number of shadows. It strips them and does damage. Lethal Triclip is AoE and strips 2-3 shadows, but he may not have DAed me twice ever.

[Laika]

So, Bukhis strategies. We killed him three times last night. Once with THF, NIN, WAR, RDM/DRK, WHM, 2 BRD, BLM. Some observations from the fight:
0) This fight is much more difficult than any of the Tier 2s in Misareaux Coast.
1) In three fights I only went through 2 stacks of Holy waters. Apocalyptic Ray is not an issue when you're doing the fight this way with Holy Waters and a few people who can Cursna.
2) Lethal Triclip isn't actually the Taurus "Triclip" attack, it's an upgraded version of Mow that gives HP down/cruor buff dispel instead of Poison if it lands. It took 2-3 shadows from me (felt like 2 was a little more common than 3), Ninja reported 1-3. I suspect its base is 2 and he can double attack. This move isn't an issue unless you have hate when he uses it. Even then, it felt like the Cruor buff dispel was about 20% (occurred after damage was assigned). Relatively large AoE range.
3) Ruinous scythe is the bad TP move, but it's weird. It strips shadows and does ~1600 + Stun + (~20% Cruor buff dispel). Small AoE range, I fought at max melee distance and managed to outrun it the only time that I tried. Our BLM stunned it a few times. Once it only did 200 damage to me, and I'm at a loss to explain why.
4) Bukhis does have Double Attack, but he isn't a Monk type monster like I was expecting. No Counter, no Guard. He's the BLM Taurus from Brothers with new TP moves and a lot more HP/defense, basically.
5) The chargeup times on the dangerous TP moves are relatively short. It's worth trying to stun Ruinous Scythe because it will often reduce your melee to a single attack round from death. If you manage to stun it, hooray, but you're really making a window for Cure 5/6 and Utsusemi. Lethal Triclip is only annoying because it can dispel the cruor buffs of the person with hate. Stay on top of things and don't waste your Stun resistance when you don't need it. If it's survivable, don't stun it. Stun -aga IVs because you can.
6) Defensive tips against Bhukis. Well, he paths like an idiot and doesn't look like he has movement speed. He also doesn't use the Taurus 50% shell move. If you took a few mages/NIN with holy waters I'm sure you could down it pretty quickly and safely. You'd need to watch out for Bindga (Durinn size AoE I'd say), but I can't imagine doing it that way would be any more dangerous than the way we did it. He'd never get you with Ruinous Scythe if you were kiting, the only pain is the bats/vampyr you'd have to pull him through to get to the Conflux 00 opening area. The Ninja and Thief reported mild success with Evasion builds and Mambo, but he was still pretty accurate. We tried Scherzo to see if it would reduce Ruinous Scythe damage, but I was too busy casting Utsusemi to notice what songs I had up even.


Our strategy was to start with WAR + NIN on it, double marches. We tried mambos, but the NIN decided it wasn't really worth it (and our dualboxed bards died multiple times) so I'd pretty much just list Marches as our only songs. When someone's Cruor buffs got dispelled (and if they survived it), the Thief would steal their hate and take over as the co-tank while they rebuffed. If anyone died, they HPed and came back. Keep three shadows up even if you don't have hate. Honestly, this might be one fight where Paladins shines. They can probably survive the TP moves without cruor buffs. Paladin with a single-hitting sword + 1 DD (or just another Paladin on the other side and a hoard of BLMs) may be the way to go. Manaburn it like it's 2006.

There's a part of me that wants to try DNC on this NM, but I'm afraid that I wouldn't be able to land Violent Flourish if RDM/DRKs can't land Stun. I'm also afraid of all the TP feeding that'd go on. Giving us access to the most Dual Wield in the game and only giving us Subtle Blow 3 is kind of a kick in the teeth. We feed TP worse than thieves.

AFAIK Dnc is a fairly good tank for Bukhis because of the PDT-% dance which helps mitigate a lot of the possibility of death from ruinous. JP PUGs tend to use DNC tank and smn/bst dd (like they do with everything.) Having a Stun rotation for just ruinous is also pretty useful as it is stunnable from log. I think he does eventually build some resist to stun, but if you keep it to just Ruinious and ga4 or something it shouldn't get to that level. The start up for Ruinious should also give you enough time to switch to damage down set as well if it ends up going through. It is somewhat interesting that you can range Ruinous Scythe though, but not sure how feasible it would be to place tanks on each side max distance and just run from it. If you have people with proper abyssites of merits and use an HP atma for security, you shouldn't have too many problems with Ruinous oneshotting tanks.

[Tadghostal]

In my experience, Ruinous Scythe doesn't take a set number of shadows. It strips them and does damage.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. I think it's a 4-hit attack.

Anyway, the easiest way to do Bukhis is to have a pld tank him down by the water while putting your blms, rngs, schs, w/e on the bridge. AOE moves won't hit them up there.

[fredjanx]

iirc there's a relatively weak pinning spot (great kiting spot) that works like the La Theine fences by Conflux 4. Maybe it's worth kiting it in case sh*t happens.

[Byrthnoth]

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. I think it's a 4-hit attack.

Anyway, the easiest way to do Bukhis is to have a pld tank him down by the water while putting your blms, rngs, schs, w/e on the bridge. AOE moves won't hit them up there.

That would explain why I saw such variability. Now it looks like a bunch of single-hit ones and a few double/triple hit ones.

[Thorny]

Has anyone had any success doing the Ixion mob with say, 6 or less?