FFXIV Tactics: Understand The Fatigue System [VIDEO]

[Charismatic]

I don't have to "make up" numbers... the amount of EXP it takes to get to 50 is low enough that if you only got exp for 4 hours a day at a rate of 3k/hr (which, btw... was never 'fast' exp) you can hit 50 in under 4 weeks.

[Hyan]

Too angry =(

I don't have to "make up" numbers... the amount of EXP it takes to get to 50 is low enough that if you only got exp for 4 hours a day at a rate of 3k/hr (which, btw... was never 'fast' exp) you can hit 50 in 4 weeks.

If you're not a BRD, make that 10h a day of actual playtime with the travel and LFG times, farming and shit.

[Charismatic]

And how much of that is grinding, Hyan?

[Ksandra]

because every MMO has some grind.

well, as long as you admit it was a grind, I have no problem with you.

[Hyan]

And how much of that is grinding, Hyan?

You still had to be hardcore to pull it off, IMO.

I do get it's not an ordinary case though.

[Charismatic]

I honestly don't believe at to be true either, I don't think it's the game's design that forced people to stand in towns rather than duo/trio like I and several others I know did. Sure it's not the exp you could get in a full party but it was better than standing in Jeuno all day like most of you likely did.
It's not an issue of hardcore of casual, it's more of a difference of being a go-getter and a lazy piece of you-know-what. The game can't be blamed for people's shortcomings.
There was plenty wrong with FFXI but the exp grind in the original game wasn't one of them. Now 51-75 (which they added later and made the grind so high BECAUSE JPs and enterprising NAs were making it to the original cap so quickly) was pretty outrageous at first, they lowered it but I still think the grind is... too much excluding things like Abyssea.

[Elrina]

I was following you until this. Just because people have gotten used to a restriction doesn't mean it's not a restriction anymore. It is evidence that one does not know anything about game design when they think restricting players in some way automatically means bad design.

I was playing Crash Bandicoot and I couldn't leave the path that the levels are based on. BAD GAME DESIGN.

I know the whole "sandbox" game design has been prevalent in these last years but it is not the epitome of good game design. While some players prefer no direction at all, a lot of players prefer direction. This is the entire basis of the tired WRPG vs JRPG argument.

I don't think it automatically equates to bad game design. And honestly, I regret using that as my argument, as I really don't know what constitutes good game design. Otherwise I would have a career right now instead of spending days at home watching my daughter.

Honestly, I don't even enjoy most WRPGs, or haven't really been interested in any of them. I enjoyed FFXIII and generally prefer JRPGs as a rule. I actually like how you point out that some players like direction, and equate this to that, because I hadn't thought of it in quite that way. Providing direction, rather than needlessly restricting. That's a good argument. I still don't think I like it (surplus), personally, but I can see it being defended more fully now.

My reasoning is that this is an MMO, not an offline/mostly offline RPG. Providing direction in this, at least in this way, I would appreciate more as tutorials and narration. NPCs giving quests and lines of thought that help provide reasoning and direction. Community managers and transparency about how the game works. Community and friends that do the same, reasoning for why you should do something or not. I see an MMO needing that extra freedom, to choose for ourselves how we want to play, to be told how the game works, especially when there are so many alternative ways they could go about rewarding players to perform the same functions that they are restricting us for.

Instead they hide information about how the game works, again. They use a system that restricts rather than one that rewards.

Again, I fall back to the simple concept that even if many of us do not feel the brunt of the restriction, it being a system based on restriction rather than reward is where I see a problem. We're playing a game for fun and enjoyment, and paying to do so. It just feels wrong to me. And while I understand that may be different for others, I think it's a pretty valid criticism, and people in this thread shouldn't be getting insulted for saying they also feel that way.

[Hyan]

@domon

Yeah, it makes sense.

@Elrina

I so wanted to play different classes on my single character in <insert MMO here> and mix and match my skills but they restricted me by only allowing me to play one class.

They even said I can't be class X on race Y because of lore restrictions.

I can't even talk to my friend in-game because he's in the opposing faction.

I really want to see an MMO with system based on reward rather than restriction. Haven't seen one yet. It's always good to wish for world peace however.

[darkblade77]

I honestly don't believe at to be true either, I don't think it's the game's design that forced people to stand in towns rather than duo/trio like I and several others I know did. Sure it's not the exp you could get in a full party but it was better than standing in Jeuno all day like most of you likely did.
It's not an issue of hardcore of casual, it's more of a difference of being a go-getter and a lazy piece of you-know-what. The game can't be blamed for people's shortcomings.
There was plenty wrong with FFXI but the exp grind in the original game wasn't one of them. Now 51-75 (which they added later and made the grind so high BECAUSE JPs and enterprising NAs were making it to the original cap so quickly) was pretty outrageous at first, they lowered it but I still think the grind is... too much excluding things like Abyssea.

Being a 'go-getter' only takes you so far, and in many cases won't save you from wasting relative time not XPing.

On that note, I'll agree that blaming game design is usually an escape, but XI's overhead was such an overwhelming factor that the perception of valuing time lost became more valuable than losing the time itself. Not much you can call that, outside of 'awful'.

Well, you admitted the semantics of what you considered 'grind' yourself, so w/e.

[Elrina]

I so wanted to play different classes on my single character in <insert MMO here> and mix and match my skills but they restricted me by only allowing me to play one class.

They even said I can't be class X on race Y because of lore restrictions.

I can't even talk to my friend in-game because he's in the opposing faction.

I really want to see an MMO with system based on reward rather than restriction. Haven't seen one yet. It's always good to wish for world peace however.

Different type of game built on different rewards and restrictions. They all have both.

It's a matter of which, and how they are presented and balanced, that make up how fun of a gameplay system they present.

And way to derail and actually respond to an argument that was on topic with sarcasm that had nothing to do with it.

[Spider-Dan]

The OP lashes out at 'naysayers' as if there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with forcing someone who reaches the cap to repeat exactly every segment of content he just did again for skill points in another discipline if he wishes to keep progressing his character for that week.

Yes, clearly the superior solution is to simply make it so that instead of hitting the surplus cap when you level GLD from 25-35 (which FORCES you to level something different for the rest of the week! gasp!), just make 25-35 take a week's worth of exp! That way, you don't have to worry about having all that annoying free time to FORCE your character be more well-rounded.

Every single criticism of surplus fails to account for this plain and simple fact: if SE has decided that it should take at least a week to level from 40-45, it will take at least a week to level from 40-45. Period.

They can implement this one of two ways:

a) make 40-45 take one week's worth of XP (see: FFXI and practically every other MMO)
b) make 40-45 take 8 hours worth of XP, and limit you to 8 hours a week of leveling on one job

There is no third option. If you are arguing against b) then you are arguing in favor of a). If you really think that you can outsmart the system and level faster than the devs allow you to, you're shortsighted and delusional.

[miokomioko]

The objections have been reduced to "it just sounds bad."

When developing games, "freedom" doesn't quite mean what everything thinks it means.

Note: we are always talking about the -average player- because there's always going to be exceptions.

People will always choose the path of least resistance. If you have a path that is easier than others, there is very little freedom because players will choose that path as there's no point in doing otherwise. By (eventually) blocking that path, you force players to choose another option. Once they approach this decision, the "freedom" being spoken about here is introduced by presenting the players with a plethora of options, all of which will benefit their character. That is the "freedom" being encouraged here.

As a game developer, making some activity easier and/or more rewarding than another is essentially the same as removing all other activities that head towards the same goal. You're removing the player's options because they won't pick other options.

Freedom sounds like a contradiction when you're thinking about it literally and objectively as "the option to do whatever the fuck you want." This doesn't apply to games because games are games because there are limitations to what you are allowed to do. Always.

[Hyan]

It's a matter of which, and how they are presented and balanced, that make up how fun of a gameplay system they present.

Actually, it all depends on you.

Are you going to be against every game because they all restrict you unfairly? Would be easier/wiser to not care really, especially if it doesn't affect you in any way.

We all prefer different games based on what they restrict and reward. There is no way around it.

[Correction]

Every single criticism of surplus fails to account for this plain and simple fact: if SE has decided that it should take at least a week to level from 40-45, it will take at least a week to level from 40-45. Period.

The criticisms don't ignore it, they target it directly. In FFXI and just about every other RPG to date, how fast you leveled was a function of how efficient in exp gain you could be per unit of time. FFXIV turns that on its head, capping your efficiency with arbitrary time boundaries. Capping player efficiency by holding the time variable constant is a different (and, as this camp is arguing, worse) kind of tug on the reins than making the next level hurdle a much larger number than the last. It was fun in FFXI trying to figure out how to make the most of your exp/hour. It'll be fun again in FFXIV, but knowing that boundary is there saps my enthusiasm for the task, especially as I look towards bringing up skill points in disciplines unrelated to a primary class I'm going to cap out first.

I don't buy the argument that fatigue enforces players to not become the 20WAR/10RDMs from FFXI's Valkurm, either. Bad players will continue to make bad decisions that slow down a PUG no matter what system for levelling is in place. Good players don't need fatigue to remind them that min/maxing their best supporting classes at the same time is a good decision.

[Hyan]

The criticisms don't ignore it, they target it directly. In FFXI and just about every other RPG to date, how fast you leveled was a function of how efficient in exp gain you could be per unit of time.

And that is for SE to decide. You can't get around it.

If we are too efficient, SE nerfs our methods or makes the grind longer. No matter what, we are still only progressing at a rate SE allows us to progress.

Now, instead of tuning that rate for hardcore, it is tuned for casuals, and takes into account that you are going to play more than one class, making it easier to do so through less grind per a single class.

[Correction]

And that is for SE to decide. You can't get around it.

If we are too efficient, SE nerfs our methods or makes the grind longer. No matter what, we are still only progressing at a rate SE allows us to progress.

Congratulations you've figured out why this is poor design. Before it was limiting how many times Aerns could resummon their elementals. But this is the first time SE has made such a blatant and fundamental grab at how fast players progress and it chafes.

[miokomioko]

SE has made such a blatant and fundamental grab at how fast players progress and it chafes.

It chafes... as in, it's different and initially uncomfortable but you'll get used to it and eventually not even notice it. This is not poor design, it's poor understanding by the average asshole.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Holy crap dude. Everyone should just give up at this point.

[Correction]

It chafes... as in, it's different and initially uncomfortable but you'll get used to it and eventually not even notice it. This is not poor design, it's poor understanding by the average asshole.

Average asshole...as in, you're an average BG asshole troll who takes one barely-salient word out of an argument and extends the metaphor in a retarded fashion. Don't forget to end with 'NUH-UH' and a personal attack, dickhead.

[miokomioko]

Yes, give up trying to understand basic game design concepts and why SE's "fatigue" system isn't fundamentally different than anything else out there.

Just because you don't understand, doesn't make me the asshole. Asshole. (see what I did there?)