FFXIV Tactics: Understand The Fatigue System [VIDEO]

[Sagacious Sundi]

I like the idea someone mentioned in another thread that leveling when you reach 0 skill points should reward you with something like Guild Marks. In my head I was even thinking that the in-universe explanation for it would be like "Whoa, bro. You kept on fighting even when you were exhausted and were gaining nothing from it. We gotta give you props for that." or something.

You would need to have some sort of nervous tick in your wrists that engages mobs in your sleep to even come close. I was surprised there even was a cap on Phys XP

Physical level surplus exists to show you that you need to work on your real physical level.

[Baffle]

I'll be willing to bet any amount of money that you could not have leveled from 1-40 within 5 days when FFXI was capped at 50.

I knew someone would nitpick this. Granted EXP now is much faster than it used to be. Even so I still think it is faster than SE expects. Hell, I don't think SE expected the playerbase to do most of the shit it did. And in regards to Abyssia, what FFXI is now is a far cry from what it used to be. But feel free to disagree.

Not placing walls in your path = benefit for hardcore

Placing walls in your path = benefit for casuals

No matter how you spin it, there is a benefit for certain demographic.

Didn't you post this earlier in the thread?

I don't think there's an issue of casual vs. hardcore here, because hardcore will still get ahead by being a lot more advanced horizontally than casuals.

If it doesn't benefit the hardcore, but casuals still end up behind, then who benefits from this?

p.s. I still think it would be better if it stopped at somewhere around -75% EXP reduction. Either way, the effect of this system is being drastically overstated

I mostly agree with this. Fatigue is something I will probably never experience personally, but it's the idea of it that offends me so much. The idea that Square thinks it's okay to tell their players when they've "had enough" and cut them off like a drunk at a bar is what upsets me so much. I don't have a problem with EXP slowing down after awhile, but it should NEVER drop to zero. I think -50% is reasonable, but it should go no lower than that.


Also why is everyone talking like there would be a huge EXP curve if not for surplus? Why does it have to be one or the other? Couldn't they make a game without surplus and a low EXP requirement? The argument for this is "people would reach cap too fast." Well in my humble opinion, that would be a much, much better alternative to any situation that might result in a player receiving zero experience for their efforts.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Casuals actually stand to lose when hardcores don't grind through content, hit endgame and then dissect the game for everyone and post strategies and all other assorted guides.

If the exp curve is too low it creates and devlopment problem of not having enougu content to maintain player interest and thus subscriptionz.

[Baffle]

If the exp curve is too low it creates and devlopment problem of not having enougu content to maintain player interest and thus subscriptionz.

Yes, but if someone loses interest because they can't level their favorite class as much as they want, what's the difference? While I still think this whole thing is being overblown, you'd have to be naive to think all of this hasn't cost SE some subscriptions.

Edit: The point is while neither option is all that great, surplus is the worse of the two, imo.

[miokomioko]

The system does not taking skill into account whatsoever. Saying "rewards hardcore players for not completely sucking" is inaccurate. Having more skills to work with will make you more useful (read: utility-capable), than having fewer. The execution of those skills is still left entirely to the players.

So, who is better at playing a given class "X"?

A) Someone hardcore that just sits on that one X class, grinding for hours on end, just wants to get that precious exp and to gain those levels/ranks so he can hit that 50 cap first and have the biggest penis around.

B) Someone also hardcore that grinds away on the same X class until he hits a level of fatigue that drops their efficiency down to the point of the time not being worth the exp. THEN, they switch to class Y so they can eventually learn a bunch of abilities that would make class X even better. Switching between 2-3 classes who's abilities cross-over appropriately over a slightly longer period of time, eventually reaching the level/rank cap with multiple classes, all of which would be much further developed than person A's one class X.


That's what I mean by not sucking.

[Anton]

But But But....

Oh forget it. It took a page and a half before "punishment" came back. Look if you're so stubborn that you have 20 hours a day PURELY to spite SE's multi-job system, you would know there are 8 craft leves that give boatloads of xp, you would know DoL is a good way to get boatloads of xp for no effort, and you would know that only crafts can repair your gear to full. Knowing all this, repeatedly running fully into the cap is not "hardcore", it's dumbcore. The stupid deserve to be punished.

This is FFXIV's system. You can fight the system like a tard, or you can work the system, and be stronger from it.

Also why is everyone talking like there would be a huge EXP curve if not for surplus? Why does it have to be one or the other? Couldn't they make a game without surplus and a low EXP requirement? The argument for this is "people would reach cap too fast." Well in my humble opinion, that would be a much, much better alternative to any situation that might result in a player receiving zero experience for their efforts.

Hey why don't we all start at level 50? That would save the playerbase a lot of time.

Moron.

[Baffle]

Hey why don't we all start at level 50? That would save the playerbase a lot of time.

Moron.

That isn't at all what I said, but sure, go ahead and be an ass about it.

What I was trying to point out is that surplus EXP and unfathomable amounts of grinding are not the only two options available. FFXI had neither and did just fine. So do other games. Making comparisons to Korean MMOs which are notorious for their massive amounts of grind doesn't really mean anything.

[Spider-Dan]

I mostly agree with this. Fatigue is something I will probably never experience personally, but it's the idea of it that offends me so much. The idea that Square thinks it's okay to tell their players when they've "had enough" and cut them off like a drunk at a bar is what upsets me so much.

I don't understand why people continually look at the "cutting off" and don't look at the drastically increased exp gain. At the end of the day, you'll gain more levels than you would have under the old super-grind system. Isn't that the point?

Also why is everyone talking like there would be a huge EXP curve if not for surplus?

Because everyone posting in this thread has played at least one MMO in their life? Notably including the last one SE made?

Why does it have to be one or the other? Couldn't they make a game without surplus and a low EXP requirement? The argument for this is "people would reach cap too fast." Well in my humble opinion, that would be a much, much better alternative to any situation that might result in a player receiving zero experience for their efforts.

A game in which people cap out in the first two weeks, there's no new content, and players get bored and quit the game after a couple of months is a better alternative? Do explain.

What I was trying to point out is that surplus EXP and unfathomable amounts of grinding are not the only two options available. FFXI had neither and did just fine.

Try again. You have played FFXI, right? The game is grind city, particularly pre-TAU (this is not to say that it was not grind city after).

[Anton]

Couldn't they make a game without surplus and a low EXP requirement? The argument for this is "people would reach cap too fast." Well in my humble opinion, that would be a much, much better alternative to any situation that might result in a player receiving zero experience for their efforts.

Wow guess I have to explain. Okay.

http://www.buzzine.com/wp-content/up...y_20090817.jpg

How does your idea make M O N E Y? Making content costs M O N E Y. Keeping players playing is good B U S I N E S S, that's what an MMO is. It keeps shareholders like me H A P P Y. Giving away content to easily is giving away my M O N E Y. For your terrible business sense, I'm out.

surplus EXP and unfathomable amounts of grinding are not the only two options available. FFXI had neither and did just fine

W... W... Really? Are you sure you played FFXI and didn't just look at the box art?

Okay, how bout this. Instead of surplus, how about I put in several quests you can't possibly do at your level, yet are directly related to advancing your level, until you've assembled enough people to help you? Totally Better. How about, when you hit the level cap, you never actually hit the cap and must continue playing well after to get special traits and abilities? Or, I know, a zone that costs large amounts of gil to enter for a shot at special gear, most of which is useless, but SOME pieces are super useful, and make the drop rate on all pieces (except bst drg and pup lololol) really really low?

IS THIS BETTER?

How about monsters that hold pieces for a piece of gear you need on your monk? Oh wait, I'll make the spawns 24 hours for 1 mob on the entire server, and, oh I'll put in some totally unrelated pieces of gear to you, so everybody else camps them too? By the way, the drop isn't guaranteed. No sir.

I just had a great idea! I bet you love waiting on parties, so um... THE WHOLE GAME REQUIRES A PARTY! THE FIRST TWO EXPANSIONS REQUIRE PARTIES! And not just any parties, retards will definitely fuck you up in promathia. Good times, good times.

IS THIS BETTER NOW? LOOK, NO SURPLUS! NO UNFATHOMABLE GRIND! FREEEDOOOOOOMMMMM

Oh and exp requirements scale up dramatically after level 50. So yes, you get your unfathomable grind too. So sorry.

You're still a moron.

[Baffle]

I had a reply typed up, but at this point I'm not going to bother.

For the record I was talking about EXP, not endgame item acquisition bullshit (which, yes, was bullshit). I never bothered with any endgame crap outside of Sky, Limbus, and Dynamis, and for those I had a group of friends of made it all quite easy.

So yes, I thought FFXI was fun. And yes, I don't think SE has the right to tell me how and when to play a game I paid for.

That's it, I disagree, I'm done.

[Grey Jorildyn]

@mioko
The rate at which a players levels and their (played) skill are completely unrelated. That is what I was stating is all

[Iraphine]

Yessss finally force people to level more then 1 class. I am a happy camper. Now they just need to add some more mage classes into the mix, and we got ourselves a game!

[miokomioko]

It's just nuts that people will make a big deal about it just because it's somewhat funneling people into a play style that makes them stronger in this game.

Theoretically, (and I know this could be way-off) if the same amount of time & exp/hr was constantly spent spent on one character... depending on how you decided to play this game, you might end up with:

a) One class at Rank-40

b) Two classes at Rank-30

c) Three classes at Rank-25

Assuming most of the abilities of the 3 chosen classes crossed over well, there's an obvious benefit to choosing something like "c." If you don't understand why cross-class abilities are a benefit, then you either don't know how FFXIV works or you simply shouldn't play this game.

[Anton]

For the record I was talking about EXP, not endgame item acquisition bullshit

No, you were talking about unfathomable amounts of grinding, and you were off by a full area code, if not several states. But let's say you WERE talking about exp, and not Kazham keys, the Genkei quests, Af quests, the weapon trials, 'merits', or the endless partying... oh wait you were.

How'd I just do that? You want to play a game with no impediments to anything? Play Phantasy Star Online. You will have everything you ever wanted within... 2 weeks, tops. And then you will leave, because there's nothing left.

FFXI had no surplus system. Right. So there were no impediments to levelling? SO FUCKIN' WRONG. I tried to explain every game will have a method. I tried to explain why. Keep that typed reply to yourself.

[TacoTaru]

What I was trying to point out is that surplus EXP and unfathomable amounts of grinding are not the only two options available. FFXI had neither and did just fine. So do other games. Making comparisons to Korean MMOs which are notorious for their massive amounts of grind doesn't really mean anything.

lol This guy. You are aware that the path to 75 was nerfed because how astronomically ridiculous the grind was right? Even after that the grind was still long pre-SMN burns. You act like the game launched in the fashion it is right now.

[Charismatic]

The game actually launched with very little grind, period. You must realize that 50 was the original FFXI cap. It was because the players reached the cap too quickly for SE's folks that the grind was made as it was on the way to 75.
Proof positive that they never did have much of an idea how quickly players would gain exp... which is what kills me with this surplus shit. The exp you get before surplus is based solely on some random numbers they cocked up... probably won't turn out to be near as pretty as you guys think it will. I do hope you all have fun with it though.

[Spider-Dan]

The game actually launched with very little grind, period.

My ass. The game launched with almost zero mana regeneration abilities, no transport, no reasonable accuracy boosting gear, no stealth abilities, etc. 3k/hour would have been god mode.

As it is, even with all of that sh*t introduced, 3k/hr was considered reasonable xp rate (with 5-6k considered elite) until late 2005. (Exceptional 75s could get more than that in merit parties, but any claim of 8k+ would have elicited calls for proof.) Given the amount of time you could expect to sit in town either waiting for an invite or waiting for the right jobs to pop, leveling from 47-48 in 2004 would have been 3.5-4 hours, easy... assuming you did it all in one shot.

Please do not try to sell a bunch of FFXI players on the idea that FFXI is not a grind. Take that sh*t to a general gaming board where someone might buy it.

[Lucavi]

It's just nuts that people will make a big deal about it just because it's somewhat funneling people into a play style that makes them stronger in this game.

I don't need a company that I pay telling me how to play the game. I"m going to play every class eventually, at my own pace, and thus, get stronger. I already had a plan of progression long before surplus was implemented into the game. That's my only real issue with it. You're pushing (not nudging, or suggesting) your playerbase into the style that you want to see. I don't agree with that, no matter how the company tries to spin it.

Its not the same as someone trying to take a paladin in FFXI and turn it into some kind of bastardized healer or something. SE never pushed that idea - they never designed a system around promoting that. They have in this case, though, and regardless of whether the system works well or not (it does, for the record), it still irks me that they'd try to tell me how to play the game. But again, this is the company that calls non-japanese blithering fools, and even japanese players are annoyed at the system, so whatever.

[miokomioko]

I don't need a company that I pay telling me how to play the game.

Do you play FFXIII with only a group of 3 Sentinels because that's how you want to play it?
Do you play FFXI with no sub-jobs because that's how you want to play it?
Do you play (pre-zodiac) FFXII while keeping your characters' stats/weapons/abilities true to one single job because that's how you want to play it?

Even if you honestly did any of those things, there's nothing wrong with it other than the fact that you're making it more difficult for yourself and essentially, to put it in the simplest terms, making yourself "gimp." No one's telling you how TO play, they are telling you how the game IS played.

[BRP]

Tactics? Marketing tactics, but not game tactics.